Actscelerate.com

None of the Disciples had a "Doctorate."

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **8/9/16 12:41 pm**

I'm all for preachers obtaining all the education possible. We live and work in an incredibly diverse and complicated population. Within our ministerial ranks, having "Dr." before your name can be a good thing as far as educational issues are concerned.

However, unless it is concerning medical issues or education, the general public don't care about "Dr." in front of a preacher's name. They spend as little time as possible with the doctor.

The Disciples were on such a first-name basis, until we don't even know their last names.

Though they did not have a "Doctorate," real or bestowed in honor, they were all chosen of God, and were used to launch Christianity. If anyone deserved to use that title, it probably was Apostle Paul, but in addition to his knowledge, his prowess was in courage and being filled with the spirit.

As we look at church history in America, and it seems the more titles ministers in an organization have, the slower the organization goes. I think that is because there becomes a growing distance between the common man and the title-holders.

Out here in the field, people do not give a rip what title you have in ministry. What they want is someone who they feel cares about them, someone who they feel can touch God on their behalf. Of course, people with a title can do that too, but in most cases, the only time people even think of the word "Dr." is when they are physically sick.

Though I continue to further my education, and hope to always do so, in praying for hundreds of different patients and staff at our hospital, not one of them has asked if I have a doctorate. Not even the doctors I've prayed with have asked that.

When he was pastor of Time Square Church in NYC, David Wilkerson stopped trying to get ministers from his church, credentialed with the AG. As far as I know, he did not have anything against the AG, but he supposedly said that many of his most effective ministers were God-called men and women who had "street smarts." They knew how to reach people,
but they were having difficulty passing the AG ministers exams. In some cases, they did not read good enough to even take the exam.

Once some people reach the doctorate stage, they began to push for higher and higher educational requirements for people to become ministers in that organization. Which reminds me of a story I heard concerning a Presidential election near the turn of the century from the 1800's to the 1900s.

Both candidates were in NY City at the same time; one to speak with a meeting of college presidents - the other spoke to cab drivers in the city. When asked why he chose to speak to the cab drivers instead of college presidents, he supposedly said, "That question is easy to answer. There are a lot more cab drivers than there are college presidents. He later won the election.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **8/9/16 12:43 pm**

Doyle, none of the disciples "claimed" a doctorate either. It aint a issue a not havin a doctorate, the issue is when folk claim one (either honorary or degree mill/unaccredited) when they aint got one. Its a issue of ethics an integrity. Nobody has faulted even one person for not havin a doctorate.

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **8/9/16 1:38 pm**

I have worked with medical Dr's for over 20 years

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **8/10/16 7:53 am**

And let me tell you, they work non-stop in their field. When they start out they are on call 24X7, they put in long hours and study non-stop to be experts in their field. Practicing and learning at the same time.

I don't have a problem with Doctor titles outside the medical field but I have to ask what did you do to earn that degree. How many hours do you continually put in to maintain that degree. How many patients do you see a week? How many people have you healed? How many people have you counseled?...... this week?

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/10/16 8:27 am**

Did Luke practice illegally? 😀

I once had someone tell me...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **8/10/16 9:08 am**

That a piece of doctrine was true, "because people smarter than us say so." I didn't retort, but I thought, "that's funny because I doubt that the initial letters were written to an overly-educated crowd in first century middle Mediterranean."

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6385 **8/10/16 10:03 am**

Could it be that the disciples didnt have a PHD because Epson Ink Factory wasnt built back then? Cool

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **8/10/16 11:01 am**

Apples and Oranges

Acts-celerater Posts: 593 **8/15/16 11:31 pm**

The early disciples and apostles spent much, much time with Jesus. Can you name a teacher who teaches a PhD course more qualified or a better teacher than Jesus. Do you think Jesus could have taught a course on the law of relativity had it been important, or quantam physics or brain surgery? 3 yrs with Jesus and you have a doctoral level education.

Today, not to get a higher degree of education at some level before entering ministry or continuing education while in ministry is slothfulness. It is important to know why it is important not to fear the one who can destroy the body only but do fear the One who can destroy both the body and soul in hell?

I assure you I give a rip whether the pastor I sit under is educated or not and so does much of society. Why would you trust an untrained preacher but not an untrained mechanic? MD degree only has medical implications in the medical field. DMin has nothing to do with medicine but a lot to do with eternal life. Which is more important?; limited physical or eternal spiritual life.
If I'm dying spiritually, get me a Dr of ministry who can help me know for sure with rightly divided doctrine that I can have eternal life.

The Apostle Paul ...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1994 **8/16/16 7:19 am**

The Apostle Paul had the equivalent of the highest theology "degree" in the Jew's tradition. You could safely say he had a doctorate in Old Testament Studies and by what the Bible records his school was "accredited".

I would say he had a better command of the original languages and text than any seminary could produce today.

What is poignant is that Paul excelled in this "schooling" and moved up the "denominational latter" of the Jewish religion before he ever became a Christian. His view of his formal training changed radically once he learned true knowledge. As far as I can tell he never "mixed" his former titles with his current calling in an effort to gain position, prestige or to legitimize his preaching.

So why do we feel the need to have titles such as Doctor, Bishop and Apostle as a qualifier for leadership?

Mat

What are the eternal benefits of having a "Doctorate?"

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1050 **8/16/16 10:03 am**

Can anyone provide stats on who has led more people to Christ between someone who has a Degree in Ministry and someone who doesn't? or who has laid hands and prayed for the sick? or which one has cast out more demons?

Sonofasoldier wrote, "If I'm dying spiritually, get me a Dr of ministry who can help me know for sure with rightly divided doctrine that I can have eternal life." Really??

I'll take a person who can get a hold of God over someone who can get a hold of a book any day of the week.

Just another example of the church being more like the world. Education over the Anointing.

I'm glad this type of thinking wasn't around sixty years ago, because there are a lot of us who wouldn't be saved and serving the Lord today if it was.

God: Who told you about my Son?
Saint: My Pastor
God: Did he rightly divided doctrine?
Saint: Yes
God: Did he have a Degree in Ministry?
Saint: No, I don't think so.
God: Sorry, can't let you in Heaven
Saint: Why???
God: Because, according to man, only a person who has a degree can rightly divide my Word.
Saint: But, according to 2 Timothy 2:15 You said all I have to do is Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God: Ok, you got Me, come on in

Is this how it happens? Hope not, I have attended one church where the pastor had a Dmin degree and the only reason he worked to get it was to impress those in Cleveland and all he cared about was making it to Cleveland one day. He is almost there.

Re: I have worked with medical Dr's for over 20 years

Friendly Face Posts: 496 **8/16/16 12:39 pm**

A friend of mine and me took a class on Ettiquette back in the 1970's because it was an easy A and was in the Home EC Department so we thought we would be quite popular as the only boys in class, but that is my ADD affliction now as I am off subject Smile

But, if I recall correctly, except in class, the only socially appropriate use of Dr. in a casual setting is a Medical Doctor. That is, PhD's could put it on their letterhead, etc, but should refrain on being called Doctor except in a classroom setting. However, I doubt they teach that as one of the requirements to earn one's PhD Smile

Interestingly, I don't think MD's in England (and perhaps Europe) go by Dr. except in their medical practice.

Re: What are the eternal benefits of having a "Doctorate?"

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **8/16/16 1:52 pm**

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **8/16/16 8:03 pm**

I remember reading something from George Patterson, maybe in the perspectives course, maybe elsewhere, where he warned about the problems of pastors sending their 'best and brightest' to Bible college, contrary to what the research had shown. When they come back, some of them seem to think they know better than the elders of the church who haven't had the privilege of such education.

Of course, the problem there isn't education, but one of pride. And also, one of keeping in mind that elders/overseers have to be Biblical qualified, not just education.

I see two problems with education and the role of church elder/overseer:

1. Accepting someone as an elder of the church based on educational qualifications even if they don't meet the Biblical qualifications.

2. Rejecting those who are Biblically qualified to be elders because they do not meet some arbitrary standard of education.

I think both are a major problem and it is worse when the two problems occur in the same church. The word 'elder' is a translation of a word that can also be translated 'older man.' In fact, in I Timothy 5, the NIV translators said 'rebuke not an older man' but translated the plural of the same word as 'elders' speaking of the elders that rule well later in the passage.

The word implies maturity. In Indonesia, they send young people to Bible College who can graduate and may get a pastoral assignment right out of school if they are willing to work in some remote village rather than the city. In a lot of places, they would get assigned to a junior position where they would have to prove themselves for a long time under the tutelage of those who are more experienced.

But I really believe we should stick to the pattern the apostles followed. They appointed the 'elders' or 'older men' from within the congregation. They lived up to certain life-style requirements, including ruling their own houses well. A very young Bible college graduate may have a lot of gifts and knowledge, but if he's thinking, "Why am I going to marry?" , "What am I going to do in life?" and just looks so innocent like a deer looking in truck headlights, does he really fit the description? If he hasn't learned to cash a check or pay bills or take care of himself or other people, does he know how to rule a house well? A little life experience is a good thing.

I'm not against young people ministering, but I do believe someone needs to have sofficient life experience to fit the description in the passages in question before being ordained.

There is also the apostolic type ministry. And there may be relatively young ministers, like Timothy, who through evangelism and discipleship, have spiritual children of their own and mature into ministry quickly that way.

As far as requiring extra education qualifications go, the Bible tells believers to use their spiritual gifts to minister to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Part of pastoring is encouraging people to obey the Lord and be faithful to him. Part of that is encouraging people in their spiritual gifts and ministries. I believe if someone is qualified, Biblically, to be an overseer, other overseers ought ot encourage that rather than squash it to protect their own position.

We need more people ministering the Gospel, pastoring others, caring for the flock, etc., not fewer. We are to be praying the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His harvest.
_________________
Link

Re: What are the eternal benefits of having a "Doctorate?"

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1050 **8/17/16 8:21 am**

Re: What are the eternal benefits of having a "Doctorate?"

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **8/17/16 9:19 am**

In the COG, the Debate is Always Either, Or

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **8/17/16 1:23 pm**

Why can't a person be anointed by the Holy Spirit and well-educated? I don't understand this ridiculous juxtaposition. To quote some "I'd rather have someone who can reach God rather than someone who can reach a book." Why not both God and a book? I can tell you from 30-years pastoral experience that my doctorate (earned) has opened many doors for me in the 14 years I have had it. People have told me they go to our website to see where the minister was educated and what he has achieved academically. If they are satisfied, that gets them in the door. Once they are in the door, then they have a chance to witness the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I have doctors, lawyers, business owners, government people and other leaders in our congregation. They want to know their pastor knows what he is talking about. For example, I have to be well-versed in Calvinism (actually a sub-set of Reformed theology) and other various soteriologies as well as Catholic dogma and Protestant (Reformed) theology. These people have deep questions on pneumatology, eschatology, and about every other "ology" one can think of. I don't know all of the answers, but I learned how to study through my academic pursuits. If I don't know something, I know how to read and get the answers.

I'd rather have an educated pastor who knows how to touch God. I think the Apostle Paul falls into this category and this was why the Lord chose him for the work he had to do. A "called" minister who has not had the privilege of an education can certainly minister, but his audience will be different. There is no condemnation in that. He will reach people I cannot. But given the choice, I'll take EDUCATION PLUS ANOINTING.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **8/17/16 1:49 pm**