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Quiet Wyatt |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each having the attributes of personhood (mind, will and emotions), |
Do you think "will" is an attribute of personhood rather than of the "nature" of God? |
I can't conceive of any person not having a will/ability to choose between options, at least internally if not always externally (if, say, physically confined for instance). That said, I understand the will to be, strictly speaking, a faculty/ability of the mind, and not in any way separable from the mind. The will is the mind deciding. This seems to be self-evidently true concerning the nature of any actual person, whether human or divine.
As to the nature of God, it seems to me that Scripture reveals God's essential personal nature a perfectly good, holy and loving Spirit, with all power to do as He will, always governed by love. (There may be more to it than just that; I'm just going off the top of my head, so to speak, right now). |
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7/13/16 12:31 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Does love require an object? |
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Posts: 12817
7/13/16 12:39 pm
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diakoneo |
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
7/13/16 12:46 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Does love require an object? |
It depends on whether you are referring to love as a verb or a noun.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 12:53 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
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Posts: 12817
7/13/16 1:02 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Boys, ever oneness person I ever talked to was so hung up on Jesus name baptism an speaking in tongues as the complete evidence a salvation, we never even got to the trinity. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:16 pm
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bonnie knox |
I gather that has been a big part of what they talked to my son about, too.
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Boys, ever oneness person I ever talked to was so hung up on Jesus name baptism an speaking in tongues as the complete evidence a salvation, we never even got to the trinity. |
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Posts: 14803
7/13/16 1:24 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | I gather that has been a big part of what they talked to my son about, too.
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Boys, ever oneness person I ever talked to was so hung up on Jesus name baptism an speaking in tongues as the complete evidence a salvation, we never even got to the trinity. |
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Miss Bonnie, tell ya boy not to let em Jesus Only fellers pull any a that "Council of Nicea, 325 AD" stuff, or that the early church didn't believe in the Trinity stuff on him. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:27 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 1:35 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past? |
In the eternal foreknowledge of the Triune God, yes! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:36 pm
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| #miraclesnevercease |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Can't we all get along seems to be the cry of the day but just ask OTCP if doctrine matters. It does. |
brotherjames found a point of agreement with Old Time Country Preacher. Seems like we ought to ring a bell and shout the glad tidings. |
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Posts: 14803
7/13/16 1:38 pm
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| Re: Well where to begin |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | | As a leader in the AG (not AoG), I feel compelled to respond as our fellowship has been somewhat maligned in this thread by some who have not characterized our beliefs correctly. |
BJ, what is the AG? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:41 pm
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bonnie knox |
Ole Timer, brotherjames is Assembly of God. Didn't you know that?
But you aren't allowed to put the little "o" in there like the "of" in Church "of" God. You have to leave that out.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 7/13/16 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 14803
7/13/16 1:44 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past? |
In the eternal foreknowledge of the Triune God, yes! |
So then the "man" Christ Jesus , a slain lamb whom God loved as his only begotten human Son, was also back there in the foreknowledge of God. The "Word was with (in) God", not the Son.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 1:44 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past? |
In the eternal foreknowledge of the Triune God, yes! |
So then the "man" Christ Jesus , a slain lamb whom God loved as his only begotten human Son, was also back there in the foreknowledge of God. The "Word was with (in) God", not the Son. |
Not the Word that was with God and was God, he has always been, but the act of crucifixion (bein slain). |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:51 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Ole Timer, brotherjames is Assembly of God. Didn't you know that?
But you aren't allowed to put the little "o" in there like the "of" in Church "of" God. You have to leave that out. |
I thought he was sayin he was not meanin the AoG in terms of denomination. I gots it now. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 1:53 pm
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| Re: Looking for a concise description of the doctrine of the Trinity |
Patrick Harris |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | I know a nice young man who is in discussions with some Oneness people. He has lots of questions. The Oneness people seem pretty entrenched and adamant. I can't help wondering if their aim is persuasion, but I guess anyone would want to express their opinions.
So, I would like to know if there is a concise (say essay length) description that explains the whys and wherefores of the Trinity the way classical Pentecostals (or Baptists) believe it. |
Why can't both parties accept that both arguments have their strengths and weaknesses? Both affirm there are distinctions within the being of God. Both affirm the deity of Christ. Where they differ is on how they approach the distinctions within God's being. But what usually happens is that both camps try to have debate instead of dialog often treating the other like they would a Mormon or JW. |
As someone who attended and was considered a member of the local UPC Church, without their specific baptism, I wholeheartedly agree.
I love my UPC friends and they never treated me as different. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
7/13/16 1:56 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past? |
Every passage must be interpreted in its own context. The verse I cited directly states that the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. That would be impossible if not for an eternal Sonship and eternal Trinity living in love one for another. |
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Posts: 12817
7/13/16 1:57 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. Indeed, the doctrine of the trinity is a synthesis of what the Scriptures teach concerning God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are numerous scriptures that contradict modalism/oneness. |
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Posts: 12817
7/13/16 2:01 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | John 17:24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. NASB |
The Bible also says that he was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 4:7)
Was Jesus back there slain in eternity past? Were we literally back there "in him" in eternity past? |
Every passage must be interpreted in its own context. The verse I cited directly states that the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. That would be impossible if not for an eternal Sonship and eternal Trinity living in love one for another. |
Perhaps you are reading something into the context that is not there. Where does Jesus emphatically state in John 17 that he was back there as a human Son in eternity past? How is it possible for God to have loved us before the foundation of the world if we were not back there? It's the same with the Son of God. There is nothing in God's revelation of himself in the Old testament that points to some sort of love fest going on within himself among his three selves. Such a relationship seems rather redundant and unnecessary, and frankly, disingenuous if it is all happening within one being. It would be like God loving himself, talking to himself etc.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 7/13/16 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 2:15 pm
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