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 Re: I think you missed the point somehow |
Quiet Wyatt |
[quote="brotherjames"] | Quote: |
Every place in the New Testament where the apostles lined people up to knock them over: _____________. Zero, zip, nada. |
| Quote: | | the fact is that up until the day of Pentecost there was no scriptural basis for tongues either, isaiah 28:11 notwithstanding. |
There are several instances in Scripture in which the apostles or those to whom they ministered are said to have spoken in tongues. There are none in which the apostles or the early church are said to have slain anyone in the Spirit, as is commonly done nowadays. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/22/17 4:25 pm
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| Re: I think you missed the point somehow |
Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | ...
There are several instances in Scripture in which the apostles or those to whom they ministered are said to have spoken in tongues. There are none in which the apostles or the early church are said to have slain anyone in the Spirit, as is commonly done nowadays. |
 
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2/22/17 4:43 pm
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| You'e being Obtuse |
brotherjames |
| purposefully. I said up until that moment on the Day of Pentecost there was NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for speaking in tongues. After the fact merely validates the initial experience. As the canon is closed, I guess God can't do anything new in your book. Sad. BTW I'm NOT promoting the practice merely defending the real deal if and when it might occur. However for you there is no real deal. I get it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/22/17 6:03 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I encourage folks to find a place to pray and seek God, and then we lay hands on them, usually while they're kneeling. Your snarkily dismissive attempt to dodge the fact that there is zero scriptural support for lining people up in hopes that they'll fall over doesn't change the fact that there is no scripture at all for such a practice. One may as well say that feeling led by the Spirit to make the sign of the cross or pray to Mary somehow makes one more spiritual or a God chaser. |
Who said people were being lined up to be prayed for so they would fall over? That's quite a cynical statement.
There are churches where the Spirit moves and people do wind up on the floor...and not because anyone is trying to push them over.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
2/23/17 12:24 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I've seen it time after time in the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. A practice which has zero basis in the New Testament is held up to be a virtual holy sacrament, indeed the high point of a spiritually powerful service. It's totally ridiculous.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/23/17 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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2/23/17 8:20 am
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| Re: You'e being Obtuse |
Quiet Wyatt |
| brotherjames wrote: | | purposefully. I said up until that moment on the Day of Pentecost there was NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for speaking in tongues. After the fact merely validates the initial experience. As the canon is closed, I guess God can't do anything new in your book. Sad. BTW I'm NOT promoting the practice merely defending the real deal if and when it might occur. However for you there is no real deal. I get it. |
You're the one being obtuse, but we all know that's the way you roll.
For anyone else who may be reading, what brotherjames is trying to do is confuse the issue. There is zero scriptural support (whether before or after Acts 2) for lining people up with the desired 'spiritual' result being for them to fall in the floor, while there IS scriptural support for people speaking in tongues as the Spirit empowers them. I suppose the next thing brotherjames will be arguing for is for people to be crowing like roosters, barking like dogs and screeching like cats as a real move of the Spirit, since he doesn't think he has to have Scripture for it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/23/17 8:27 am
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Pastor Wright |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I've seen it time after time in the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. A practice which has zero basis in the New Testament is held up to be a virtual holy sacrament, indeed the high point of a spiritually powerful service. It's totally ridiculous. |
I tend to agree with you here.
I have no qualms with a powerful altar service, but if it's of God shouldn't there be fruit borne from it down the road rather than it being an end in itself?
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Hey, DOC
Posts: 68
2/23/17 12:37 pm
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| Re: You'e being Obtuse |
Link |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: |
You're the one being obtuse, but we all know that's the way you roll.
For anyone else who may be reading, what brotherjames is trying to do is confuse the issue. There is zero scriptural support (whether before or after Acts 2) for lining people up with the desired 'spiritual' result being for them to fall in the floor, while there IS scriptural support for people speaking in tongues as the Spirit empowers them. I suppose the next thing brotherjames will be arguing for is for people to be crowing like roosters, barking like dogs and screeching like cats as a real move of the Spirit, since he doesn't think he has to have Scripture for it. |
I see some of the stuff Pentecostals do as culture. In the Bible, I see laying on of hands for healing, for reception of the Spirit, and for imparting of spiritual gifts and separation to ministry.
Pentecostals will lay hands on people to pray for anything. I'm not saying it's a sin. But it is the church culture. They may be some benefit to pointing out that the Bible shows laying on of hands for specific things. I believe 'lay hands on no man suddenly' is talking about ordaining elders and deacons and such, not about praying for healing. I don't see where the Bible warns about demons getting in you if you lay hands on someone, something I've actually heard taught.
I was in a meeting once in Indonesia where a preacher from overseas had people come up to get ministered to. He'd lay his hand on their head, they'd fall, and he'd go on the the next. He wasn't even praying for them as far as I could see. I was thinking, what's the point? My wife had been prophesying quite a bit, and when we left this all night or late night meeting to go home, some people followed her out and she prophesied over them. They'd rather hear prophesy than just have someone lay a hand on their head and fall down.
Falling down is in the Bible. Jesus said, "I am" in the garden and the soldiers who came to arrest him fell backwards. When the cloud entered the temple in the time of Solomon, the priests could not stand to minister. Lining people up to make them fall down is not in the Bible.
But if you lay hands on someone and they fall down, that doesn't mean you've sinned or that something evil is going on. I don't think we should seek such things, but if it happens, we shouldn't be judgmental either.
I believe we also have to have some Bible to back us up to condemn something to. I wouldn't encourage people to seek gold dust or gems appearing. But if you are at a meeting and gold dust appears, that doesn't mean you are in sin. if gems start appearing, the Bible doesn't give us any basis for condemning that, either. I just do not think it is healthy to become too obsessed with such things. One of the books in the foyer could have had some glitter on the cover that got on your hands, for all you know.
I Corinthians 14:12 tells us
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
I don't see how gem and gold dust edify people, so why should I be zealous for such things?
When it comes to people barking like dogs and screeching like cats, I've never heard of Pentecostals doing that. I heard of that sort of thing at the Cane Ridge revival in the 1800's, the dogs that is, and something about people roaring like lions at Toronto.
This is different from gold dust appearing or people feeling weak and falling down. These are utterances people are making in church, and the Bible does give us some instructions on what kinds of things we are to say in church. The Bible says to let all things be done unto edifying. It also says to let all things be done decently and in order. How does barking like a dog edify anyone?
God is sovereign, and He can do as He likes. There are some things we know He won't do because of what the Bible teaches. For example, the Bible says that it is impossible for God to lie. If God hasn't limited Himself, we have no right to limit Him. In the Bible, God never miraculously fixed an automobile. If someone says He prayed for His broken car or laid hands on it, and it worked, I shouldn't say God wouldn't do something like that just because it isn't in the Bible.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
2/23/17 10:00 pm
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Link |
Head pushing preachers need catchers, especially if people behind the one having hands laid on him put their hands on his lower back which serves as a fulcrum. He's got his hands in the air, setting him off balance, a fulcrum on his lower back, pressure on his head, and BAM-- he falls. That guy needs a catcher.
I think we ought to start a new Charismatic and Pentecostal tradition. Whenever a preacher or anyone else puts undue pressure on your forehead, you point at him and loudly yell 'Head pusher!"
That could stop the practice right there.
How can we spread this idea? I could submit an article to Charisma. Do you think they'd publish it?
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2/23/17 10:06 pm
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Link |
It's interesting to me how a lot of Pentecostals will be really protective of Pentecostal practices that aren't in the Bible, but wary of practices that are in there.
A lot of Pentecostals are wary of, or downright opposed to personal prophecy. By that I mean a prophecy addressed to an individual and not the congregation. In the A/G growing up, I heard a lot of prophecies directed to the congregation, usually made up of scriptures put together or paraphrases of scripture. But certain individuals were a little scared of personal prophecies. The Bible has lots of examples of personal prophecy. Paul even got one in Acts.
The same thing goes for directive prophecies, predictive prophecies, etc.
Some of the same Pentecostals will treat lining up to get hands laid on you so you can fall down almost like a sacrament.
Some old timey Pentecostals in the south back when I was a kid were against new fangled dancing in church. Some churches would have dancers in the front intentionally dancing. Yet they'd be supportive of 'dancing in the Spirit.' I can't find ecstatic, uncontrolled dancing in the Bible. I can't find the phrase 'dancing in the Spirit.' I can see in the Psalms where people are told to dance. It would seem to be an intentional thing they chose to do, rather than something that came on them. David's dancing that Michal did not care for was apparently something he chose to do.
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2/23/17 10:11 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
"Falling down is in the Bible. Jesus said, "I am" in the garden and the soldiers who came to arrest him fell backwards. When the cloud entered the temple in the time of Solomon, the priests could not stand to minister. Lining people up to make them fall down is not in the Bible.
But if you lay hands on someone and they fall down, that doesn't mean you've sinned or that something evil is going on. I don't think we should seek such things, but if it happens, we shouldn't be judgmental either."
I agree with these comments, Link.
I do, however, think the thing about people barking like dogs is in "Like a Mighty Army" but I think it was used as an example of "wildfire" and extremism. There was an elderly woman in my church of my childhood that would crow like a rooster when the Spirit came on her. As a kid this did not seem any more extreme to me than people running the aisles and shouting and speaking in tongues. This did not seem to be unscriptural to me, since Acts 2 talks about the disciples not being drunk as the others supposed. If people thought they were drunk, they were probably acting like they were drunk.
Of course, things should be done in an orderly fashion and it's up to the pastor to make sure that happens in any given church service. He should depend on the Holy Spirit to show him if something is not of God and if it's not, to put a stop to it.
A lot of churches don't have a lot of Pentecostal "manifestations" anymore and many yearn for the days when the Spirit moved more freely. I believe in things being done decently & in order, but I also believe in allowing the Spirit to move when He desires to. There must be a balance, and the pastor must be attuned to the Holy Spirit to allow this to happen.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
2/24/17 12:06 am
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Link |
If someone crows like a rooster in church, is it interpreted so the church can be edified?
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2/24/17 1:11 am
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Carolyn Smith |
| Link wrote: | | If someone crows like a rooster in church, is it interpreted so the church can be edified? |
If there was an interpretation, I never heard it.
I heard a nationally known minister address this once. It happened in a service and afterwards this person said, "OK, what's up with the rooster crowing?"
Whoever the minister was talking with said, "Did you notice what the pastor said right after that? The first words out of his mouth were, 'It's a new day.'"
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
2/24/17 6:58 am
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bonnie knox |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | Link wrote: | | If someone crows like a rooster in church, is it interpreted so the church can be edified? |
If there was an interpretation, I never heard it.
I heard a nationally known minister address this once. It happened in a service and afterwards this person said, "OK, what's up with the rooster crowing?"
Whoever the minister was talking with said, "Did you notice what the pastor said right after that? The first words out of his mouth were, 'It's a new
day.'" |
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Posts: 14803
2/24/17 9:10 am
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Link |
Head pushers usually need catchers.
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2/25/17 4:50 am
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| Any Biblical Accounts of Being Blessed by Falling Backwards? |
Preacher777 |
I am not presenting an argument against being slain in the Spirit and have gone down a couple of times in my life. If my recollections are correct it was probably during the hardest times of my life when I was probably subconsciously looking for an escape from reality.
I presented a question earlier that was asked of me by a woman who has spent years studying the Bible for many hours. She heard a teaching presenting the fact that the Bible never records falling backwards as a good thing. She said that she studied the Biblical accounts of being slain in the Spirit and it was always a forwards fall. I do know that the soldiers were on the wrong side of God and they fell backwards.
Does anybody know of an account where people fell backwards as a blessing form God? I do see many instances where they fell forward in His presence. I realize that when the cloud entered the temple at the time of Solomon it says they could not stand to minister but doesn't say they fell backwards.
I am not trying to split hairs but looking for truth. I love having people in church who spend hours reading the Bible but don't always have the time to research the questions that come from detailed study. I appreciate Actscelerate and the ability to ask questions/learn together here. When people say the board is useless I think of the learning/growing opportunities we have on this message board. |
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Posts: 434
2/25/17 9:17 am
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| Re: Any Biblical Accounts of Being Blessed by Falling Backwards? |
Cojak |
| Preacher777 wrote: | ...
I presented a question earlier that was asked of me by a woman who has spent years studying the Bible for many hours. She heard a teaching presenting the fact that the Bible never records falling backwards as a good thing. She said that she studied the Biblical accounts of being slain in the Spirit and it was always a forwards fall. I do know that the soldiers were on the wrong side of God and they fell backwards.
.... |
Interesting point of view... 
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2/25/17 9:47 am
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Link |
I've read where people on the Internet make much of falling backwards rather than forewards. Falling forward may have often been a wilful thing--along the lines of prostrating during prayer.
I wonder if some folks would fall forward rather than backwards if it weren't for head pushers.
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2/25/17 11:23 am
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Charles Page |
the problem with Pentecostals/charismatics is that too many are pushovers!
They will fall for anything!
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Posts: 346
2/25/17 1:54 pm
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Cojak |
| Charles Page wrote: | the problem with Pentecostals/charismatics is that too many are pushovers!
They will fall for anything! |
For sure not all are pushovers, but we sure have a good percentage. The wonder to me is that most folk are honestly mislead because they want to do what is right. We have heard the 'Touch Not Mine Anointed many times and we want to believe the one called 'a man of God'. 
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2/25/17 2:36 pm
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