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 Do Mary and the Saints Pray for Us? |
Aaron Scott |
If you believe that, upon death, a person is immediately in heaven (as opposed to sleeping until the Resurrection), then consider that it makes a lot of sense that they would pray for you.
When I need pray, I may ask my dad or others to especially pray for me. Do I think that my dad, if he passes on, would be any less inclined to intercede for me? Doesn't Jesus ever live to make intercession?
I feel confident that if I were to die, and if I were ABLE TO, I would for sure be praying for folks. I might even have a better understanding of what they are going through, etc.
But can you ASK Mary, Peter, your aunt, your dad, etc. to pray for you if you have passed on? Well, yes, you can ASK...but do they hear/know? Maybe. We simply do not know.
Now, one more step.... If you want pray, you don't just walk up to anyone on the street and ask for pray. You ask someone whom you believe can pray effectively, who can "get a prayer through," as they used to say. Well, you can see why so many would think that Mary had the inside edge on getting prayers answered. Or why the saints/apostles might have an edge, due to their close walk with the Lord in this life.
I am NOT saying that we should pray to Mary. I don't (nor the saints/apostles, just to be clear). HOWEVER, if I died, and IF I could know you wanted me to pray for you, etc., I certainly would.
So, on what grounds do we suppose that it is somehow wrong to ask for prayer from someone who is passed on? We do believe that they are not exactly gone, don't we? Again, not making any doctrinal claims, and I don't practice it or preach it. However, I also am not going to act like it's wrong if someone does that...so long as it's not idolatry, etc. Thoughts? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/12/17 10:28 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
Sounds like Perry Stone sensationalism, Aaron.
A feller dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord. Total Perfection. Now if he was prayin fer his lost son/daughter/mom/dad who is a sinner on earth, would that not bring grief/pain/etc., an all, him knowin they was lost an might go to hell? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
4/12/17 11:26 am
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| OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Sounds like Perry Stone sensationalism, Aaron.
A feller dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord. Total Perfection. Now if he was prayin fer his lost son/daughter/mom/dad who is a sinner on earth, would that not bring grief/pain/etc., an all, him knowin they was lost an might go to hell? |
Funny, then, how the martyrs' souls that are under the altar seemed to remember quite vividly that they were martyred, right? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/12/17 11:35 am
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| Our understanding of heaven |
RandallScottSimms |
I have long held the belief that most really misunderstand the difference between heaven and the New Earth (i.e. Streets of gold, pearly gates)
New Earth happens after tribulation and IMO after millennial reign.
However, the book of Revelation shows us people in Heaven aware of the happenings on earth.
Last edited by RandallScottSimms on 4/13/17 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
New Member
Posts: 10
4/12/17 11:53 am
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| Re: OTCP... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Sounds like Perry Stone sensationalism, Aaron.
A feller dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord. Total Perfection. Now if he was prayin fer his lost son/daughter/mom/dad who is a sinner on earth, would that not bring grief/pain/etc., an all, him knowin they was lost an might go to hell? |
Funny, then, how the martyrs' souls that are under the altar seemed to remember quite vividly that they were martyred, right? |
Limited memory for a singular purpose. An Enoch or Elijah kinda thing. |
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Posts: 15570
4/12/17 12:06 pm
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| RandalScottSimms |
JLarry |
Revelations?
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No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
4/12/17 1:43 pm
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| Re: Our understanding of heaven |
Aaron Scott |
| RandallScottSimms wrote: | I have long held the belief that most really misunderstand the difference between heaven and the New Earth (i.e. Streets of gold, pearly gates)
New Earth happens after tribulation and IMO after millennial reign.
However, Revelations shows us people in Heaven aware of the happenings on earth. |
Randall, I had an uncle who drilled that truth into me. In fact, he put up a 125 acre farm in Cleveland for anyone could show where Jesus ever promised anyone a home in heaven, a trip to heaven, etc.
But over time, although I tread carefully due to his influence, I have come to know that there are people in heaven (the great multitude mentioned, etc.). Now, are those there immediately upon death? Is that some matter that we should not take as a chronologically the case, etc.?
Indeed, the COG Declaration of Faith explicitly states that we will rule on the EARTH. (Of course, this doesn't mean no one is going to heaven, etc.) |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/12/17 2:55 pm
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| Re: OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Sounds like Perry Stone sensationalism, Aaron.
A feller dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord. Total Perfection. Now if he was prayin fer his lost son/daughter/mom/dad who is a sinner on earth, would that not bring grief/pain/etc., an all, him knowin they was lost an might go to hell? |
Funny, then, how the martyrs' souls that are under the altar seemed to remember quite vividly that they were martyred, right? |
Limited memory for a singular purpose. An Enoch or Elijah kinda thing. |
Now, whose stretching?
We will know people in eternity as they are known.
We will know there is a devil who is cast into the Lake of Fire.
We will obviously know there is a hell and a heaven.
I think that the whole "tears" thing is not that we cannot remember...but PERHAPS that we will have an understanding that, despite it all, God is loving, merciful, and just.
Also, we will apparently know that there was a Lamb that was slain, and that larger truth has some uncomfortable elements in it. |
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Posts: 6042
4/12/17 2:58 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron is right here.
Take away our memory and our past, and we are no longer us.
Why put us through earth to have it all wiped away?
And when exactly do the tears fet wiped away? I believe we have a cloud of witnesses in heaven.
Except for the praying to Mary stuff,...hes been watching too many knute rockne movies.
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4/12/17 5:01 pm
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| As I understand .... |
Mat |
As I understand the RCC's concept of Mary, whom they venerate as the "Mother of God" and deify as co-redeemer with Jesus - she being both sinless by Immaculate Conception and by her sinless life ending with her Assumption to heaven - that she is assisting Jesus in the His redemptive office.
Now beyond the Bible imperative not to communicate with the dead, as well as the overt addition to the Godhead (the Queen of Heaven), it seems clearly out of step with Jesus (alone) as the first fruit of the Resurrection.
It has been explained to me that sometimes Jesus (in the RCC dictum) is just too holy to approach, so intermediaries (the Saints and His Mother) are entreated for intercessory prayer from their holy position so near the Savior. This heavenly congress of priest (the saints and Mary) is out of step with a large body of scriptures found in the Book of Hebrews, not to mention the Words of Jesus in the Gospels and the preaching of the Apostles.
I'll sure those who practice Hinduism are fine with a growing number of Gods and demigods, but for me, give me Jesus.
Mat |
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Posts: 1994
4/12/17 8:25 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. This is either true or it ain't.
Mediation is directed to the Father on behalf a someone. Jesus alone is the mediator.
Not Mary, not the many saints, not ma great great granmomma who is with Jesus, not great aunt Gertrude who is runnin the streets a gold, not a single person who has ever died an is now with the Lord prays fer the ole timer. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
4/12/17 9:19 pm
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Cojak |
You know what? Iffn you had known Mary personal she just might put in a good word for you.
So in that vein, if possible, My mama (and daddy) is up there sorta saying, "Give the boy one more chance, he only gave me trouble once, maybe twice!"
But although I have visited their graves and tried to talk to them, I don't think they hear my prayers. BUT if they remember me, they know I really do mean well, and am trying the best I can. and if possible they will put in a good word for me. 
They also know I need to be in the bed, I B headed for SC in the AM! LOL
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Posts: 24285
4/12/17 11:38 pm
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Link |
I knew an evangelical Presbyterian with some Charismatic leanings who is now Greek Orthodox who made that argument when he was thinking of converting.
They also think 'the great cloud of witnesses' is observing us. That's a bit of a leap if you ask me.
We don't know if the saints can see us. The Bible does warn against communicating with the dead.
It seems to me that the obsession with the saints probably came out of synchretism. Pagan Greeks and Romans were used to going to temples that had statues of false Greek gods they could pray to about specialized problems. The temple was named after the god. They'd pray to Hermes/Mercury for issues related to commerce and theft, maybe Zeus if they wanted rain, to Hera if a spouse was cheating, etc.
Fast forward a thousand years, and there were Greeks and Romans going to church buildings named after a saint. On the Roman side of things, there might be a statue to represent the saint. They'd pray to a particular saint about a certain issue. They'd pray to St. Nicholas, the patron saint of merchants and repentant thieves. They'd pray to St. Christopher and ask him to pray for them about safe travels.
When I was in middle school in Louisiana, a Roman Catholic kid with a headache asked me what was the name of the saint to pray to if he had a headache. I told him to pray directly to God.
Why don't we see the apostles doing this sort of thing? Why don't Acts and the epistles say James the son of Zebedee is up there, so ask him to pray for you? Why didn't Elijah pray to Moses?
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4/13/17 4:14 am
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Link |
Something else I don't get is some of the things they were doing with relics. Why would they collect the apostles bones (supposedly) and put them on display in the middle ages if they truly respected the saints? If they respected them, why wouldn't they bury the bones.
That might not have been as effective at bringing the pilgrims.
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4/13/17 4:18 am
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Aaron Scott |
| Link wrote: | Something else I don't get is some of the things they were doing with relics. Why would they collect the apostles bones (supposedly) and put them on display in the middle ages if they truly respected the saints? If they respected them, why wouldn't they bury the bones.
That might not have been as effective at bringing the pilgrims. |
For the same reason we have Fields of the Wood. They are considered precious. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/13/17 5:54 am
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Mat |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Link wrote: | Something else I don't get is some of the things they were doing with relics. Why would they collect the apostles bones (supposedly) and put them on display in the middle ages if they truly respected the saints? If they respected them, why wouldn't they bury the bones.
That might not have been as effective at bringing the pilgrims. |
For the same reason we have Fields of the Wood. They are considered precious. |
Is Fields of the Wood equal to the veneration of "relics" by the RCC and OC? Having been there many times, from my childhood up, and having touched, played on, been around and even read what the markers say, I was still a mean little boy and for me there was no special blessing or impartation of power from the experience. I may have learned something, though in my early life I tried my best not to. Even as a student at George R. Stuart School where in the fifth grade Mrs. Slay tried to beat the meanest and the COGOP out of me with her flat wooden spoon (with tape on the end) all I had to show for it was welts. That spoon is not a relic either.
Some may see it different, but even when I go up to the archives at the Dixon Pentecostal Research Center and touch books, Bibles and other items of our early leaders which are housed on the "holy" campus of Lee, I feel no special blessing or healing and have not experienced any visions as a result. I had a first edition LAMA signed by Conn himself (which I donated to the center), but spiritually, even though he had touched it, nothing supernatural happened when it was in my hands. The veneration of relics, such as the bones of the saints (aren't we all saints?) is not an act of faith, rather it is superstition. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead" so why do we not let those who died in the faith rest (sleep) until Jesus resurrects their body?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
4/13/17 9:24 am
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Aaron Scott |
| Mat wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Link wrote: | Something else I don't get is some of the things they were doing with relics. Why would they collect the apostles bones (supposedly) and put them on display in the middle ages if they truly respected the saints? If they respected them, why wouldn't they bury the bones.
That might not have been as effective at bringing the pilgrims. |
For the same reason we have Fields of the Wood. They are considered precious. |
Is Fields of the Wood equal to the veneration of "relics" by the RCC and OC? Having been there many times, from my childhood up, and having touched, played on, been around and even read what the markers say, I was still a mean little boy and for me there was no special blessing or impartation of power from the experience. I may have learned something, though in my early life I tried my best not to. Even as a student at George R. Stuart School where in the fifth grade Mrs. Slay tried to beat the meanest and the COGOP out of me with her flat wooden spoon (with tape on the end) all I had to show for it was welts. That spoon is not a relic either.
Some may see it different, but even when I go up to the archives at the Dixon Pentecostal Research Center and touch books, Bibles and other items of our early leaders which are housed on the "holy" campus of Lee, I feel no special blessing or healing and have not experienced any visions as a result. I had a first edition LAMA signed by Conn himself (which I donated to the center), but spiritually, even though he had touched it, nothing supernatural happened when it was in my hands. The veneration of relics, such as the bones of the saints (aren't we all saints?) is not an act of faith, rather it is superstition. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead" so why do we not let those who died in the faith rest (sleep) until Jesus resurrects their body?
Mat |
I, too, have been to Fields of the Wood a number of times. And while most of the time it was just an informative, scenic landmark, there was one time when it became heaven on earth to me. I was deeply touched, and I seemed to grasp the fire and fervor that was in the hearts of those Christian pioneers.
But my point about being "precious" does not mean they have some spiritual power (although the body of dead Elisha apparently did), but rather they are kept (and venerated--which I do not espouse) precisely because they are a link to a past that is very important.
If someone gets a special blessing, well, like I said, something similar happened to me at Fields of the Wood 13 years ago this month. It changed my life, and I believe it was the reason I have a son. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/13/17 10:28 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Mat wrote: | | Is Fields of the Wood equal to the veneration of "relics" by the RCC and OC? |
Among a lot a folk, YES!
Flags
FOTW
Pictures of AJT in COGOP Churches
Etc... |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
4/13/17 2:13 pm
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Mat |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Mat wrote: | | Is Fields of the Wood equal to the veneration of "relics" by the RCC and OC? |
Among a lot a folk, YES!
Flags
FOTW
Pictures of AJT in COGOP Churches
Etc... |
I know what you mean. All that concrete and symbols. Those graven images (statues), its like the Vatican.
Mat
PS Those flags have got to go! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
4/13/17 6:42 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Nicely done mat.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
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4/13/17 8:55 pm
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