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 Re: Just a difference of opinion here |
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| jimmyjon wrote: | | I do not believe NT prophesy needs to be 100% right all the time. Big difference between OT and NT standards. |
If we are partakers of a better covenant and are under grace, why would we have worse gifts? (Charis-grace, charisma-gift.)
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4/26/20 11:37 pm
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| Re: We want so much |
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| autumn trees twice dead wrote: | | for things to happen so we can feel Jesus instead of trusting in His presence in our lives. This was spoken in 2009 when the president was Kim Jong-il and not the current leader Kim Jong-un who wasn't president until 2011.i Clement said your president who was KIm-Jong -Il. |
If his father was president at the time, that doesn't prove the prophecy wasn't about him.
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You have to be right 100% of the time to be a prophet. In 2005 Clement said God would eliminate all virus. That has not come true. |
I saw a little of the guy banging away on the piano on TBN. I don't know that much about what he said. What was the time limit on the virus prophecy? Did he say all viruses or one particular type?
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He wasn't held accountable.He said the next 4 years 2005 -2008 the greatest harvest ever. Didn't come true
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Did he say a location? Is it global? Do you know the stats for conversions worldwide, including Africa and Asia?
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4/26/20 11:43 pm
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| Re: Just a difference of opinion here |
caseyleejones |
| Link wrote: | | jimmyjon wrote: | | I do not believe NT prophesy needs to be 100% right all the time. Big difference between OT and NT standards. |
If we are partakers of a better covenant and are under grace, why would we have worse gifts? (Charis-grace, charisma-gift.) |
It's better because I don't have to have a priest to go to God or have the prophet to tell me the heart and mind of God. Because Jesus is now our high priest and 1/3 of me is wall to wall Holy Spirit, I can say it is a million times better. I can go to God and hear from God directly.
The OT prophet does not exist nor is needed.
I am better off today with the HS than the disciples walking with Jesus. Yep, it is a million times better. |
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4/27/20 4:49 pm
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| Re: Just a difference of opinion here |
Cojak |
| caseyleejones wrote: | ...
I am better off today with the HS than the disciples walking with Jesus. Yep, it is a million times better. |
Agreed, BUT wouldn't it have been sweet just to walk down the road with him and HEAR that 'God' wisdom.......... Yeah I know about that dude Thomas.. But still Just to rub shoulders with HIM.....
Love you dude.
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4/27/20 7:18 pm
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| CJ, my flesh says yes yes yes.... |
caseyleejones |
Jesus said...
But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.
So, ....I will have to take his word for it...  |
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4/28/20 3:12 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
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Cojak |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | What is the point of the gift of prophecy? |
Just me, but this definition has always been my take on OT prophecy:
proph·e·cy
noun
noun: prophecy; plural noun: prophecies
a prediction.
"a bleak prophecy of war and ruin"
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4/28/20 8:10 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Cojak wrote: | | Carolyn Smith wrote: | | What is the point of the gift of prophecy? |
Just me, but this definition has always been my take on OT prophecy:
proph·e·cy
noun
noun: prophecy; plural noun: prophecies
a prediction.
"a bleak prophecy of war and ruin" |
Thanks, Cojak, but I really meant NT since that is what is so much in question.
I heard a well known minister say that NT prophecy focuses on the validity of the word spoken rather than the prophet. That makes sense to me.
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4/28/20 10:00 pm
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I believe Peter gives us a good rule-of-thumb definition for prophecy when he says 'holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost' (or carried along by the Holy Ghost.)
It is possible for prophets to act out signs and prophesying was done on musical instruments. Psalms can be sung, but generally, prophesying is speaking.
It can be about past, present, and future.
I didn't really notice it when I went to a COG, but I the impression I get from the forum is that the COG has tongues and interpretation, but not really a culture of people giving prophecies during the meetings like the A/G. (It's sort functions the same way in the A/G, minus the message in tongues first. And the pastor doesn't have to give the tongue, interpretation, or prophecy.)
I don't know of any Pentecostal denomination that does anything to implement "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. And if a revelation cometh to one who sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.'
I haven't seen letting the other judge and yielding the floor to the other with a revelation that I know of in a Pentecostal church.
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4/28/20 11:41 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Link wrote: | I believe Peter gives us a good rule-of-thumb definition for prophecy when he says 'holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost' (or carried along by the Holy Ghost.)
It is possible for prophets to act out signs and prophesying was done on musical instruments. Psalms can be sung, but generally, prophesying is speaking.
It can be about past, present, and future.
I didn't really notice it when I went to a COG, but I the impression I get from the forum is that the COG has tongues and interpretation, but not really a culture of people giving prophecies during the meetings like the A/G. (It's sort functions the same way in the A/G, minus the message in tongues first. And the pastor doesn't have to give the tongue, interpretation, or prophecy.)
I don't know of any Pentecostal denomination that does anything to implement "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. And if a revelation cometh to one who sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.'
I haven't seen letting the other judge and yielding the floor to the other with a revelation that I know of in a Pentecostal church. |
I think allowing prophecy in COG kind of depends on the pastor and the church. A state official visited our church one Sunday and my former pastor prophesied to him about something he didn't know anything about. God also told him to take up an offering for him and give him a specific amount (which was desperately needed.) The state official said later he hadn't been in a service like that for 6 years! (Sad!!!)
I do remember a pastor saying that he and his elders judge the prophecy, but I don't remember who it was. I agree, it is kind of rare.
Perry Stone told a story once about a man asking him about the prophetic word he gave. The man said, "You gave the interpretation, but there were no tongues." To which Perry replied, "Yes, sir. That's called prophecy."
We were at a non-COG once and a person sang a message in tongues and the interpretation rhymed. I had never seen that before (or since.)
There is definitely a need for balance with prophecy, and the one who prophesies needs to be subject to their leader (to keep them in check and balanced.) I think prophecy has gotten a bad name because of flaky people (and some prophetic people can be a bit flaky.) It's definitely biblical, but a lot of people are afraid of it. And there's not a lot out there to help train people in how to flow in their gifting. Yes, the Holy Ghost will show them, but it is a process to understand it and grow in it, as in any gifting.
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4/29/20 12:34 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | I think prophecy has gotten a bad name because of flaky people (and some prophetic people can be a bit flaky.) |
Could you name some of these flaky people? Because every time something flaky is posted here, we get threads like this. This forum is fine with Kim Clement, Chuck Pierce, Shawn Bolz, goodness even Kenneth Copeland. All of these folks are regarded as true prophets here. So who on earth would qualify as flaky? I'm asking sincerely, and I'm not looking to argue back or debate. I am just really curious who these flaky people are, because based on my experience here on Acts, it doesn't seem like there are any flaky people posing as prophets at all.
The Bible promises that in the last days the church will be inundated with people who prophesy falsely and that these people will deceive many including, if it were possible, members of Christ's church. But a reader of Acts would walk away thinking there is no one in the church today who fits that bill. |
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4/29/20 8:16 am
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| Carolyn asked a question "What is the point of Prophecy? |
jimmyjon |
Paul explains the point well in 1 Cor. 14:3. He says NT prophecy has as it's main functions to edify (build up, strengthen, teach) exhort (encourage, push forward) and comfort (empathize, help, hold one's hand). In the OT, prophecies may have done those 3 things but often prophets gave the rebuke of the Lord, warnings, spoke to foretell coming events (even if in the far future) and call to worship God and praise/worship God. The NT prophet can prophesy that way as well (see Agabus in the book of Acts) but NT prophetic words do more "forthtelling" than "foretelling". Our Baptist cecessionist friends call "preaching" prophecy for today. And there certainly can be the element of prophecy in anointed preaching.
Prophetic utterances can and do include Words of Knowledge and the Gift of a Word of Wisdom. Someone once said defining the Gifts of the Spirit definitively can be like defining God definitively, impossible. The Gifts come in clusters like a bunch of grapes on a vine. Each individual but part of a whole.
In our church (AG), we often have prophecies and occasionally tongues and their interpretations. We have Words of Knowledge and other Gifts are manifested from time to time. I have always instructed my people along Paul's lines of 1 Cor. 14. Everything decently and in order. After 2 or 3 prophecies, I stop the service and tell the people to take a moment and let's weigh what we just heard. If we believe God Himself is speaking by His Spirit to us, if God took time out of His busy schedule to speak to us, should we not consider what he said. Perhaps He said he was healing today or there is something He is asking from us. Should we not then do what He said or is asking? Then, when we have considered and done what was needed, we move on. God's Word to His people encourages us, motivates us, comforts us when necessary and teaches us His Will.
What is the point of prophecy you ask? More is often accomplished during those times in His Presence and HIs forthtelling Word than any sermon or song service. The point is He shares with us His will and we are blessed. God is still desirous to communicate His Word to us, to fellowship with us. His prophetic Word NEVER goes against His written Word but it often enlarges it to us and pushes us forward to accomplish His desire in us. |
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Posts: 87
4/29/20 10:53 am
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Carolyn Smith |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Carolyn Smith wrote: | | I think prophecy has gotten a bad name because of flaky people (and some prophetic people can be a bit flaky.) |
Could you name some of these flaky people? Because every time something flaky is posted here, we get threads like this. This forum is fine with Kim Clement, Chuck Pierce, Shawn Bolz, goodness even Kenneth Copeland. All of these folks are regarded as true prophets here. So who on earth would qualify as flaky? I'm asking sincerely, and I'm not looking to argue back or debate. I am just really curious who these flaky people are, because based on my experience here on Acts, it doesn't seem like there are any flaky people posing as prophets at all.
The Bible promises that in the last days the church will be inundated with people who prophesy falsely and that these people will deceive many including, if it were possible, members of Christ's church. But a reader of Acts would walk away thinking there is no one in the church today who fits that bill. |
I actually meant people I have known personally. I know several people who "walk in the prophetic," and sometimes they are right on the money and other times, they get sidetracked into something else.
The only person I would definitely say this fits that anyone would recognize is Robert Tilton. I used to watch him eons ago and no matter where in the show I turned it on, within 3 minutes, he was saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord..." So it became obvious to me that something was out of whack with his "words from the Lord."
I don't like to speak against ministers or ministries, so it has to be something really obvious for me to say they are off track. I think we should listen to what national prophetic voices are saying and weigh it and see if it comes to pass. The Word spoken by Kim Clement about Kim is interesting to me, particularly because he said, "He's not in a vegetative state. He is brain dead." Which is part of the speculation going on today. He also prophesied about Trump becoming president in 2007. Who would have ever believed that possible in 2007?
There are some thing I have discernment about, but judging people is not one of them. I am more of a mercy person, so I usually rely more on others to speak out about prophets and such. I don't think modern day prophets should be judged according to OT standards, so I think there is some room for error, which is not generally accepted in this forum. And it seems the majority of people here don't trust any or many prophetic people today. More people mock it than accept it.
Another example, there was a lady in the church we pastored in WI that was a self-proclaimed prophet. Here's the thing, though...she would start out in the Spirit, but she didn't know when to stop (or didn't listen to the Lord) and before she would sit down, she would get in the flesh and be out of order. I think some people are genuine in their faith but don't know how to handle what they've been given or they don't submit to the Lord or authority and think their "gift" overrules things flowing decently and in order.
It seems to me today that we are so concerned with people being a false prophet that we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. There are people who walk in the prophetic, who hear from God, but they are not generally accepted...or eventually, they fall into sin or error and it taints their gifts. People like AA Allen, who God used to heal thousands, but his flesh was weak and he became a closet alcoholic, which destroyed his ministry. That doesn't mean those people weren't healed. God used him, but at some point, he got off track.
Sorry for the lengthy post, just sharing my thoughts and opinions based on my understanding of scripture and what I have witnessed personally.
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4/29/20 11:15 am
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| Re: Just a difference of opinion here |
Link |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | Link wrote: | | jimmyjon wrote: | | I do not believe NT prophesy needs to be 100% right all the time. Big difference between OT and NT standards. |
If we are partakers of a better covenant and are under grace, why would we have worse gifts? (Charis-grace, charisma-gift.) |
It's better because I don't have to have a priest to go to God or have the prophet to tell me the heart and mind of God. Because Jesus is now our high priest and 1/3 of me is wall to wall Holy Spirit, I can say it is a million times better. I can go to God and hear from God directly.
The OT prophet does not exist nor is needed.
I am better off today with the HS than the disciples walking with Jesus. Yep, it is a million times better. |
Acts and I Corinthians say there are prophets in the church. Nowhere does it say it is no big deal if a prophet is wrong while prophesying in the name of the Lord. Paul said we prophesy in part. He did not say we prophesy in error.
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4/29/20 11:50 pm
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| Re: Just a difference of opinion here |
caseyleejones |
| Link wrote: | | caseyleejones wrote: | | Link wrote: | | jimmyjon wrote: | | I do not believe NT prophesy needs to be 100% right all the time. Big difference between OT and NT standards. |
If we are partakers of a better covenant and are under grace, why would we have worse gifts? (Charis-grace, charisma-gift.) |
It's better because I don't have to have a priest to go to God or have the prophet to tell me the heart and mind of God. Because Jesus is now our high priest and 1/3 of me is wall to wall Holy Spirit, I can say it is a million times better. I can go to God and hear from God directly.
The OT prophet does not exist nor is needed.
I am better off today with the HS than the disciples walking with Jesus. Yep, it is a million times better. |
Acts and I Corinthians say there are prophets in the church. Nowhere does it say it is no big deal if a prophet is wrong while prophesying in the name of the Lord. Paul said we prophesy in part. He did not say we prophesy in error. |
Paul said in Corinthians let the prophets speak and the others judge. Judge for clarity and validity.
The OT prophet no longer exists. If so, then we need priests. The only thing they have in common is the name. Their functions don't even coincide.
That said, yes, there are supposed to be prophets in the church. I personally belief and understand that the prophets are supposed to be in the church and operate through the church. I believe that is God's perfect desire. However, I grew up with prophets travelling from church to church. I have watched them and heard them call people out and tell them what was wrong with them then he prayed. They called them by name and the community they were from. I believe the prophet is for the local church planted in the local church. |
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4/30/20 8:23 am
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| Admittedly, I don't follow some of the prophets some of |
caseyleejones |
| you speak of. So I cannot speak about them. |
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4/30/20 8:24 am
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Carolyn Smith |
Actually, as I think about this, it is not so much that the prophetic word is not correct, it is more that the person (the prophet) got off track like the woman I spoke of from WI. I believe she loved the Lord and was trying to use her gifting, but she didn't know when to stop. She didn't seem to realize when God was done or maybe it felt good. I don't know. She would go on and on until it was obvious to everyone but her that she was out of order. My husband eventually sat her and her husband down and talked to them. Her husband agreed with mine but she was quite offended. "Touch not mine anointed...do my prophets no harm" response. And they left the church. The sad thing was that several of her kids and grandkids had gotten saved while they were there, and they all left with her.
I have witnessed other similar things, but it was usually a doctrine in error or not understanding the role of the prophet in the NT church or just falling into sin.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
4/30/20 9:40 am
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caseyleejones |
| Link wrote: | I believe Peter gives us a good rule-of-thumb definition for prophecy when he says 'holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost' (or carried along by the Holy Ghost.)
It is possible for prophets to act out signs and prophesying was done on musical instruments. Psalms can be sung, but generally, prophesying is speaking.
It can be about past, present, and future.
I didn't really notice it when I went to a COG, but I the impression I get from the forum is that the COG has tongues and interpretation, but not really a culture of people giving prophecies during the meetings like the A/G. (It's sort functions the same way in the A/G, minus the message in tongues first. And the pastor doesn't have to give the tongue, interpretation, or prophecy.)
I don't know of any Pentecostal denomination that does anything to implement "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. And if a revelation cometh to one who sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.'
I haven't seen letting the other judge and yielding the floor to the other with a revelation that I know of in a Pentecostal church. |
I tend to agree with you. But it is biblical.
The problem with all these debates and something I have to remind myself....
1) We live in the NT not OT. So many times I question doctrine derived from the OT.
2) What does the Word of God say? Not what I remember growing up in SS or what grandma used to do or what my favorite COG preacher said. What does the Word of God say.
I do believe there are practices one might do that are not necessarily anti-God or anti-biblical. We have only seen a snapshot of Jesus what Jesus did and by one writers accounts that all the books in the world could not contain the works of Jesus. That being said, Jesus and all the writers in the NT said enough as it is that we cannot as a church agree on the small amount. My belief is that we have only received .0001% or smaller of what the will of God is through his Word. We cannot agree on tongues or healing or heaven which are basics. More revelation is not going to help. |
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4/30/20 12:59 pm
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caseyleejones |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | Actually, as I think about this, it is not so much that the prophetic word is not correct, it is more that the person (the prophet) got off track like the woman I spoke of from WI. I believe she loved the Lord and was trying to use her gifting, but she didn't know when to stop. She didn't seem to realize when God was done or maybe it felt good. I don't know. She would go on and on until it was obvious to everyone but her that she was out of order. My husband eventually sat her and her husband down and talked to them. Her husband agreed with mine but she was quite offended. "Touch not mine anointed...do my prophets no harm" response. And they left the church. The sad thing was that several of her kids and grandkids had gotten saved while they were there, and they all left with her.
I have witnessed other similar things, but it was usually a doctrine in error or not understanding the role of the prophet in the NT church or just falling into sin. |
We are earthen vessels with flaws. We are a fallen people. We are 1/3 wall to wall HS but we are also 1/3 flesh and 1/3 soul that tends to pick the wrong side. |
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4/30/20 1:01 pm
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| Enough |
autumn trees twice dead |
People we need to test all things (1Thess. 5:21) and not look everywhere for a sense of God being alive.
! John 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. -- The words believe and test are in the imperative. That means a command and to give highest priority.
Many will believe and defend every person who claims to be a prophet without any testing whatsoever, but they won't follow simple Biblical orders.
So many have the need to see God's movement in all especially when it comes to man and the use of gifts. We need to rely more on the Christ in us which is the hope of glory.--
26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints. 27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28We proclaim Him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.…
Col. 1
Yet we glory in man instead in hopes of substantiating our own beliefs and seeking to fulfill our need of seeing/sensing God at work. Jesus is in us and He works mightily. There is no need for the sensational and the drama to attempt to prove that God is real and that He is with us.
There will be true prophets, but as the bible says there will be many false ones and many false Christs. Pray for wisdom in discernment and read the word for guidance. God is so wondrous in everyday situations. We don't need to go chasing man's attempts at being the vehicle of God. When God speaks there will be no doubt and there will be no error.
Kim Clements is a false prophet that revels in superstition. False Prophet Clements must be noted and avoided (2 Thessalonians 3:14). Jesus is the living God. Spend our time paying attention to Him and His word and stop looking elsewhere regardless what man claims.
TEST EVERYTHING
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/world/asia/kim-jong-un-resurfaces.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-southorea/south-korea-says-kim-jong-un-did-not-have-surgery-as-two-koreas-exchange-gunfire-idUSKBN22F03N
Test these reports too as people lie.
15Pay careful attention, then, to how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.…
Ephesians 5
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Hey, DOC
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5/3/20 7:29 am
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