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 Ethical Quandary...THOUGHTS? |
Aaron Scott |
A man asked a preacher friend of mine about a novel, but perhaps unethical, idea for buying a vehicle, but not paying full taxes. Having learned if it, I thought it interesting enough to ask you all.
For example, let's say a car is for sale for $10,000. If the sales tax is 10%, that means a $1000 in sales tax. He thought to tell the seller that he would pay $3000 for the truck, but would pay the man $7000 to detail it, deliver it, fill it with gas, etc. This way, the sales tax would only be on the $3000?
Is it wrong to seek to shelter money from taxes? Or would this scenario be unethical? No, I am not referring to Donald Trump. This is just something my friend had been questioned about.
Thoughts? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
10/12/16 12:21 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Better make the transaction less than 10,000 - otherwise Feds will note it.
Sell it for 10 dollars - get a 9990 detail job.
Better check the state - some states charge tax on services.
Or pay the 7000 for the service - then post on yelp how poor the 7000 detail job is - tell seller that you will take down bad yelp review for 1000 - get the final price at 9000.
Unethical.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
10/12/16 12:27 pm
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UncleJD |
Not that it makes it right, but my state is totally unethical in their vehicle tax practice.
They don't care what you paid for it, if you paid $5000 for a car and they "think" its worth $10,000 then they will charge you "sales" tax based on what they "think". Actually they have a "value" book written by guess-who. That they use to value the car. It is 100% unethical. In their leading by example they have said by their actions that the price of the car is not what you pay taxes on, its what they "think" you should pay taxes on. Therefore, I guess you can have a book that says what YOU "think" you should pay taxes on.
There is very little ethical in government these days. 
edit: but that doesn't excuse us, I know. I just don't appreciate dishonesty from the government. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
10/12/16 12:44 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
Let me see here..............ETHICS? ETHICAL QUANDERY?
Would this not be kinda like the feller (quite a few COG preachers has done it) what sends in $500 (or $1K, or $2K, etc.), gits a piece a paper what has doctorate wrote on it, an commences usin it an all as though it was the real deal?
No it ain't ethical, but it happens ever day in the COG. An to address a feller like at as "Dr. Slipshod" is perpetuatin an untruth. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
10/12/16 2:01 pm
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| Re: Ethical Quandary...THOUGHTS? |
c6thplayer1 |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | A man asked a preacher friend of mine about a novel, but perhaps unethical, idea for buying a vehicle, but not paying full taxes. Having learned if it, I thought it interesting enough to ask you all.
For example, let's say a car is for sale for $10,000. If the sales tax is 10%, that means a $1000 in sales tax. He thought to tell the seller that he would pay $3000 for the truck, but would pay the man $7000 to detail it, deliver it, fill it with gas, etc. This way, the sales tax would only be on the $3000?
Is it wrong to seek to shelter money from taxes? Or would this scenario be unethical? No, I am not referring to Donald Trump. This is just something my friend had been questioned about.
Thoughts? |
Its not unethical , Its totally dishonest beyond all doubts in my book. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/12/16 4:05 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
The question may be better suited if you ask, 'is it legal?'
Yes it is legal to find tax loop holes.
If you can make a contract & the man sells you the car on paper for a set price but you agree to help him out with his daughter's dental bills or what have you ...is it legal? Yes!
If your governor said he was going to use all used car sales tax to form a team of special agents to tax your church in every legal way possible would you look at it differently?
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
10/12/16 7:22 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
I would look at it no differently. If the church would be taxed legally then so be it until the law changes.
| Quote: | If your governor said he was going to use all used car sales tax to form a team of special agents to tax your church in every legal way possible would you look at it differently?
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/12/16 7:45 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | I would look at it no differently. If the church would be taxed legally then so be it until the law changes.
| Quote: | If your governor said he was going to use all used car sales tax to form a team of special agents to tax your church in every legal way possible would you look at it differently?
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So legal is legal ...right???
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
10/12/16 8:24 pm
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Cojak |
I don't think it would be unethical. But many states that tax a car use the 'blue book' value. Now that there are so many 'books' I don't know which the use because condition is not considered for taxes. YES, by gravy, that is WRONG but they do it.
When you use the 'rules for taxes' set up by the state and feds and stay legal, what is the problem?
Oh, there could be One problem, if the seller agrees and signs the title over, but the 'detailing' is not paid for, one might look foolish in court. 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
10/12/16 9:13 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | I would look at it no differently. If the church would be taxed legally then so be it until the law changes.
| Quote: | If your governor said he was going to use all used car sales tax to form a team of special agents to tax your church in every legal way possible would you look at it differently?
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So legal is legal ...right???
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Of course legal is legal. The example of the 7000 dollar detailing would not be because the intent of the transaction in this matter is to cheat the state out of taxes. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/12/16 9:33 pm
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| Re: Ethical Quandary...THOUGHTS? |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | A man asked a preacher friend of mine about a novel, but perhaps unethical, idea for buying a vehicle, but not paying full taxes. Having learned if it, I thought it interesting enough to ask you all.
For example, let's say a car is for sale for $10,000. If the sales tax is 10%, that means a $1000 in sales tax. He thought to tell the seller that he would pay $3000 for the truck, but would pay the man $7000 to detail it, deliver it, fill it with gas, etc. This way, the sales tax would only be on the $3000?
Is it wrong to seek to shelter money from taxes? Or would this scenario be unethical? No, I am not referring to Donald Trump. This is just something my friend had been questioned about.
Thoughts? |
 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
10/12/16 10:09 pm
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Link |
If it is not illegal, I'd say it is a conscience issue. The government departments or the courts may consider it illegal. The fact that the price of the detail job is so far above market price makes it suspect. If previous court rulings allow for this sort of thing, I'd say it's a conscience issue.
If it is unethical, then wouldn't it be unethical to use other strategies to reduce taxes?
An important question would be, who will do more good with that $7000? The individual or the government? Another question, is who does the money belong to, the one who earned it, or the government that will take the money as taxes if you categorize it a certain way.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
10/13/16 2:37 am
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c6thplayer1 |
| Link wrote: | If it is not illegal, I'd say it is a conscience issue. The government departments or the courts may consider it illegal. The fact that the price of the detail job is so far above market price makes it suspect. If previous court rulings allow for this sort of thing, I'd say it's a conscience issue.
If it is unethical, then wouldn't it be unethical to use other strategies to reduce taxes?
An important question would be, who will do more good with that $7000? The individual or the government? Another question, is who does the money belong to, the one who earned it, or the government that will take the money as taxes if you categorize it a certain way. |
I think theres only one question. Are you an honest person? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/13/16 9:30 am
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UncleJD |
Do you mark "General Fund" or "Tithes" on your envelope ?
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
10/13/16 9:36 am
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bradfreeman |
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| Brad |
R. Keith Whitt |
In the spirit of Tom Sterbens can you unpack that for us?
For example, I restore and sell classic Corvettes. If I have one listed for $25k and the buyer wants me to paint it at a cost of $7500, does the purchase price now become $32,500 or is it 2 separate transactions? Either way, why?
Thanks,
Keith
_________________
R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
10/13/16 12:57 pm
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| Re: Brad |
c6thplayer1 |
| R. Keith Whitt wrote: |
In the spirit of Tom Sterbens can you unpack that for us?
For example, I restore and sell classic Corvettes. If I have one listed for $25k and the buyer wants me to paint it at a cost of $7500, does the purchase price now become $32,500 or is it 2 separate transactions? Either way, why?
Thanks,
Keith |
Thats so simple it hurts. The purchase price for the car is 25K. Exactly what you have it listed for. The 7.5k is an additional cost for labor and material that will be added to the car and taxed differently depending on how your state applies taxes to material and labor. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/13/16 1:55 pm
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| Re: Brad |
Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | R. Keith Whitt wrote: |
In the spirit of Tom Sterbens can you unpack that for us?
For example, I restore and sell classic Corvettes. If I have one listed for $25k and the buyer wants me to paint it at a cost of $7500, does the purchase price now become $32,500 or is it 2 separate transactions? Either way, why?
Thanks,
Keith |
Thats so simple it hurts. The purchase price for the car is 25K. Exactly what you have it listed for. The 7.5k is an additional cost for labor and material that will be added to the car and taxed differently depending on how your state applies taxes to material and labor. |
I too buy & sell classics of certain types.
So if I offer Keith $20k for the same car & he accepts the terms & I ask him to do a $5k detail job & deliver the car, I have technically made a legal purchase if he agrees to the terms.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
10/13/16 7:42 pm
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| Re: Brad |
c6thplayer1 |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | R. Keith Whitt wrote: |
In the spirit of Tom Sterbens can you unpack that for us?
For example, I restore and sell classic Corvettes. If I have one listed for $25k and the buyer wants me to paint it at a cost of $7500, does the purchase price now become $32,500 or is it 2 separate transactions? Either way, why?
Thanks,
Keith |
Thats so simple it hurts. The purchase price for the car is 25K. Exactly what you have it listed for. The 7.5k is an additional cost for labor and material that will be added to the car and taxed differently depending on how your state applies taxes to material and labor. |
I too buy & sell classics of certain types.
So if I offer Keith $20k for the same car & he accepts the terms & I ask him to do a $5k detail job & deliver the car, I have technically made a legal purchase if he agrees to the terms.
. |
So , Keiths long or short term capital gain will be based on 20k While the 5k detail job , as shady as it is , will be taxed as income which will probably bring his total tax bill higher than it would be if he just sold the car for 25k. Keiths tax bracket also has a bearing this. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
10/13/16 8:52 pm
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| Re: Brad |
Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | R. Keith Whitt wrote: |
In the spirit of Tom Sterbens can you unpack that for us?
For example, I restore and sell classic Corvettes. If I have one listed for $25k and the buyer wants me to paint it at a cost of $7500, does the purchase price now become $32,500 or is it 2 separate transactions? Either way, why?
Thanks,
Keith |
Thats so simple it hurts. The purchase price for the car is 25K. Exactly what you have it listed for. The 7.5k is an additional cost for labor and material that will be added to the car and taxed differently depending on how your state applies taxes to material and labor. |
I too buy & sell classics of certain types.
So if I offer Keith $20k for the same car & he accepts the terms & I ask him to do a $5k detail job & deliver the car, I have technically made a legal purchase if he agrees to the terms.
. |
So , Keiths long or short term capital gain will be based on 20k While the 5k detail job , as shady as it is , will be taxed as income which will probably bring his total tax bill higher than it would be if he just sold the car for 25k. Keiths tax bracket also has a bearing this. |
In a private sale I do not believe you are responsible for submitting a 1099 for the cost of the detail job. It's up to Keith to make out an invoice for his own tax records.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
10/13/16 9:23 pm
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