Actscelerate.com

A few thoughts on WoF absurdity

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1865 **6/3/19 2:46 pm**

Many WoF teachers proclaim that Jesus was wealthy and lived an opulent lifestyle. Let's consider a few factors:

Christ was born in a stable. At His circumcision, Joseph and Mary offered turtledoves (a poor person's sacrifice who couldn't afford a lamb according to Lev 12:8). Christ borrowed a boat to preach from. When it was time to pay the temple tax, He sent Peter fishing. When the multitudes were hungry He didn't send Phillip into town (remember Phillip was concerned how to finance the meal). Judas was the treasurer of the group and yet he was willing to betray Jesus for a mere 30 pieces of silver. In His death, Jesus was buried in a borrowed tomb.

Sorry folks, the WoF ship is not seaworthy. Jump overboard while you still can!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 3:24 pm**

I was just thinking today about the same kind of thread! The WoF folks have retorts to just about any Scriptural objection you can raise. You could see this in the Copeland video when the reporter mentioned Matthew 19:24.

I drank from the WoF cup for many years and have listened to hundreds if not thousands of hours of WoF sermons from Copeland, Duplantis, Jerry Savelle, Bob Yandian, Kenneth Hagin, Keith Moore, and others. I've heard their prepared responses dozens if not hundreds of times, and I thought it might be interesting to have a series of "counter responses" to examine those WoF apologetics in depth and see if they are properly interpreting the verses they are using.

You might want to check the archives

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 4:11 pm**

We've discussed WoF doctrines extensively here. Just look up any OTCP archive. In addition, whatever Copeland's lifestyle may or not be and however offensive you may or may not find it, for the most part the "prosperity gospel " as preached in the eighties is not really the main thrust of WoF doctrine today.

Actually, WoF churches may in fact be some of the few remaining truly Pentecostal churches around today. They still pray for the sick in faith and believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by tongues as in the Book of Acts.

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 4:24 pm**

Duplicated

I for one eschew lavish lifestyles

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 4:27 pm**

and have always been concerned about how our ministry and lives reveal Jesus to an unsaved world.

However, that said, I have always preached that poverty is a curse. Being poor is no sin but being rich isn't necessarily a sign of God's favor. So, how much are you ALLOWED to make or own? What constitutes too much? Isn't all of that a bit subjective? If you live in a rural area one set of standards may apply (although I know some very wealthy farmers- check the price on a John deere combine for instance) and if you live in a major city another standard may apply. Who are we to judge what is ALLOWED. HA! Maybe some jealousy applies. Joel Osteen sold millions of books as did Rick Warren and Copeland for that matter. I believe neither Warren nor Osteen take salaries from their churches due to their royalties. So. If they live in mansions, God bless them.

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **6/3/19 4:39 pm**

I wonder what John The Baptist would have had to say on this when he appealed to Jesus to prevent his execution.

Re: I for one eschew lavish lifestyles

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 5:11 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 5:18 pm**

As having a share of the blessings of God as one grafted into the tree

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 5:24 pm**

Of Father Abraham it certainly seems to me that these verses apply to Christian's
Deu. 28:The Covenant Blessings
1 â€œIf you indeed obey the LORD your God and are careful to observe all his commandments I am giving you today, the LORD your God will elevate you above all the nations of the earth.

2 All these blessings will come to you in abundance if you obey the LORD your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the field.

4 Your children will be blessed, as well as the produce of your soil, the offspring of your livestock, the calves of your herds, and the lambs of your flocks.

5 Your basket and your mixing bowl will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

7 The LORD will cause your enemies who attack you to be struck down before you; they will attack you from one direction but flee from you in seven different directions.

8 The LORD will decree blessing for you with respect to your barns and in everything you do â€“ yes, he will bless you in the land he is giving you.

9 The LORD will designate you as his holy people just as he promised you, if you keep his commandments and obey him.

10 Then all the peoples of the earth will see that you belong to the LORD, and they will respect you.

11 The LORD will greatly multiply your children, the offspring of your livestock, and the produce of your soil in the land which he promised your ancestors he would give you.

12 The LORD will open for you his good treasure house, the heavens, to give you rain for the land in its season and to bless all you do; you will lend to many nations but you will not borrow from any.

13 The LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you will always end up at the top and not at the bottom, if you obey his commandments which I am urging you today to be careful to do.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 5:26 pm**

Lol I am talking to a friend about this thread and a few minutes ago I told him, "Deuteronomy 28 incoming".

Da Sheik... maybe we should collaborate on a series about WoF apologetics.

We should defend and

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 5:32 pm**

Help the poor but that doesn't mean we are all to be poor. As to your question, I have seen as you have many unrighteous people with wealth and many righteous without it. Blessings come in many ways, what would you pay to remain on good health for your whole life? But, the Gospel lifts. When the principles of the Kingdom are diligently applied, hard work, ethical treatment and lifestyles and seeking first the Kingdom of God, Jesus said God would take care of the rest of it. I can tell you of many stories of very poor people who turned to Jesus and found material blessings as they walked with God. And before you tell me of those who weren't blessed materially I would suggest there are too many reasons in each case to deal with that properly.

Are you suggesting Deu 28

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 5:34 pm**

Does not apply to the believer? My.

Perhaps a NT

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 5:37 pm**

Example since you have thrown out the OT
My point is this: 2 Cor. 9:6The person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously.

7 Each one of you should give just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, because God loves a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace overflow to you so that because you have enough of everything in every way at all times, you will overflow in every good work.

9 Just as it is written, â€œHe has scattered widely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness remains forever.â€

10 Now God who provides seed for the sower and bread for food will provide and multiply your supply of seed and will cause the harvest of your righteousness to grow.

11 You will be enriched in every way so that you may be generous on every occasion, which is producing through us thanksgiving to God,

12 because the service of this ministry is not only providing for the needs of the saints but is also overflowing with many thanks to God.

13 Through the evidence of this service they will glorify God because of your obedience to your confession in the gospel of Christ and the generosity of your sharing with them and with everyone.

14 And in their prayers on your behalf they long for you because of the extraordinary grace God has shown to you.

15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 5:49 pm**

To the topic of Deuteronomy 28, this is a great example of how WoF folks misread Scripture because they are very familiar with the trees of various passages, chapters, and verses, but they do not understand the forest of biblical theology.

Deut. 28-30 are very important chapters in the unfolding of God's work for and through His people. Of course, on the surface, they are a very detailed recitation of the stipulations of the covenant He is making with Israel. IF they obey His law, THEN they will receive the blessings listed in Deut 28. And if they disobey, then they will receive the curses later in the chapter. Just think about that for a second. Whether they receive the blessings or the curses is entirely dependent on their works and their faithfulness and obedience to the law. Hopefully that sounds like something that sits cross-ways with the gospel, because it should.

Deut 28 is followed in chapters 29 and 30 by Moses' final address, in which he again reminds them of their requirement of obedience to God and implores them to obey Him. But he also foresees that they will not be faithful to their covenant with God, and that all of the curses of Deut. 28, including exile from the land of promise, will come on them.

Yet, God's grace of restoration is promised. Moses likewise foresees that exiled Israel will repent, and will be restored to the land of promise and to God's blessings (30:2-10). But when they return, the stipulations of Deut. 28 will still apply. What is to prevent this cycle of exile, curse, repentance, and restoration from repeating again and again?

Moses foresees the answer to this final question in 30:6, where he proclaims that the answer to Israel's faithlessness is not ultimately to be found in them somehow figuring out how to finally obey, but in God Himself. "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." God, on His own, will change the hearts of His people so that they will be able to do that for which their own strength and effort would never be enough.

Israel will fail to supply the obedience required to obtain the blessings of Deuteronomy 28, but will supply in abundance the rebellion which brings its curses. If you'd like the chapter to apply to believers today, it will apply in the same way, because no one has within himself the capability to supply the obedience God's law requires.

But one was coming who could, and who would, and through whom God would freely bestow every blessing in the heavenly places to all who received Him and were justified by faith in Him.

Well Dave,

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 7:50 pm**

So let me see if I've got this right. Because Israel could not keep the law the curses not the blessings applied to them but when Messiah came, He would fulfill the law and restore the blessings upon all who believe in Him by faith. That a about it?

Just one problem with your exegesis. I will be kind however and merely ask, how come in Deu. God promises tangible blessings for obedience and tangible curses for disobedience but in your plan of restoration all the blessings suddenly become spiritual. This is how well meaning people have applied the verses of Isa 53 to only cover spiritual healing when in fact Jesus healed physically and Matthew 18:17 says specifically the healing talked about in Isa 53 is physical as well as there being a spiritual component.
If Jesus restored all that was taken from us as sons of Abraham no longer under the Law of Moses wouldnt that include tangible blessings? Some people over spiritualize these verses in order to mask the truth. In much the same way many say the Book of Acts, and the the gifts listed in 1 Cor. are no longer for today. But in the early 1900's the truth was re-introduced to the church. Unless you are of the cessaionist camp you would agree, perhaps you are missing something here. You mock but I humbly and kindly suggest you are mistaken.

PS Just so no one including the lurker OTCP

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 7:57 pm**

Misunderstands me, I am an AG presbyter not in the WoF church. On the other hand, as I stated earlier, at least the the WoF people still believe in healing and pray in faith for it and they still believe and practice the baptism in the Holy Spirit with initial tongues.

If you were a student of Hagin, there was very little I found disagreeable in his teachings. He disowned the excesses of the prosperity gospel before his death btw and rebuked those those who taught it.

Re: Well Dave,

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 8:18 pm**

I would suggest you are underestimating

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 8:43 pm**

The finished work of Jesus. The serpent has been crushed under His feet. You as a Christian have been set free and redeemed from the curse of the Law.
Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
Gal. 3:7 so then, understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, â€œAll the nations will be blessed in you.â€

9 So then those who believe are blessed along with Abraham the believer.

10 For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, â€œCursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.â€

11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith.

12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, â€œCursed is everyone who hangs on a treeâ€)

14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Inheritance Comes from Promises and not Law
15 Brothers and sisters, I offer an example from everyday life: When a covenant has been ratified, even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it.

16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, â€œand to the descendants,â€ referring to many, but â€œand to your descendant,â€ referring to one, who is Christ.

17 What I am saying is this: The law that came four hundred thirty years later does not cancel a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to invalidate the promise.

18 For if the inheritance is based on the law, it is no longer based on the promise, but God graciously gave it to Abraham through the promise.

19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.

20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one.

21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

22 But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given â€“ because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ â€“ to those who believe.

Sons of God Are Heirs of Promise
23 Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed.

24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

You and others who are waiting for the enemy of our souls to be sent to the lake of fire in order to inherit the promises are unfortunately missing the freedom and blessings Christ has already paid such a dear price for. I am an overcomer now by faith.

Perhaps you missed this statement by Jesus in Mark 10:Peter began to speak to him, â€œLook, we have left everything to follow you!â€

29 Jesus said, â€œI tell you the truth, there is no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for my sake and for the sake of the gospel

30 who will not receive in this age a hundred times as much â€“ homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, all with persecutions â€“ and in the age to come, eternal life.
He said now, in this time material things and spiritual things later (eternal life).

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/3/19 8:49 pm**

Mark 10:28-31 would be another excellent choice for a series on WoF apologetics.

Perhaps because they

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/3/19 9:43 pm**

Prove the point.