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Unidentified...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5103 **3/26/07 10:33 am**

I agree with Travis Johnson on this one. Selfishly, I would like to see you stay. Another poster recommended training some of the other churches, and that is an outstanding idea. There is a group of 5 ministers in my region that meet together every couple of months to encourage each other, the more experienced ones help the less experienced ones, and someday they want to be able to help others as a team. For the most part, these 5 men are 5 of the most progressive men in my region. It also helps that2 or three of them are in the top 10 in attendance. Being one of the larger churches definitely gives you some credibility.
I was just thinking about this change yesterday, and for me, the most discouraging thing is that the people that I feel could really make a change, don't want to have anything to do with the political side of things. If we younger ones (both in age and mindset) pray for our leadership and the direction of our denomination, God will hear those prayers, and things will change. God can change anything He wants to, either by changing the heart of leaders, or changing the leaders. So, like I said, selfishly, I'd like to see you stay, and help us see a day that some of the changes we feel are necessary, happen.

God won't be angry if you go.

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **3/26/07 6:28 pm**

When the Lord called us to be "Fishers of Men," he didn't necessarily assign to or limit us to one boat. While a boat does need support to stay afloat and get it's passengers to the fish, the COG - as is true in other organizations, has often become more interested in the boat than in the reason for having one.

God won't be angry if you and your congregation feel you can find more fish from a different boat. The question is, will changing boats actually increase the intake of fish?

While it still has ways to go (don't we all), the COG is now a place where one can follow the leading of the Lord in the type of ministry one has without feeling forced to be like everyone else.

As long as the Biblical tenants of faith are maintained, one can be fervently pentecostal, spiritually enthusiastic without physical demonstrations or even sedate in physical response.

There will always be someone who thinks you'd too spiritual or not spiritual enough but as we know, what God thinks is what really counts and He looks upon the heart.

It does take courage to move into things not yet grasped by fellow ministers or churches. But since you are where you are now, that means you've already done that.

Even if we have different feelings about "how" things are done there can be strength in being part of a larger fellowship.

ALL SHIPS ARE SAFEST in the harbor but that's not what they're built for. There's no problem with having a safe harbor unless those who run the harbor will slowly cut away at your desire to break free of the barriers and sail into the unknown and uncharted territories.

While they can be an asset, depending on who the leader is at the particular time, organizations can also be a drag - pulling and tugging to keep one from getting "too big" or "out of control."

God and the Church of God organization are not the same thing.

Please understand, even with some improvements over the past few years, the COG is still greatly about control. That isn't going to change. The organization gets nervous about those who rise up to be different.

There are indeed some wise Brothers in the Lord who understand it's important to allow people to grow in "how" they do things. As long as those guys move on up in leadership there probably won't be a problem but if you got a new state AB who disagreed with how you do things, there could be problems.

There don't seem to be intentional efforts at this time in the COG to change. The change is not coming from visionary leadership at the national and international level. The changes in the COG are coming through innovative local ministers and state ABs who are wise enough to allow men and local churches to minister in a different way.

In fairness, the leaders we have at headquarters now are wise enough to know different people respond to different kinds of music and methods of teaching and preaching. While they may not be actively trying to forment visionary change, there doesn't seem to be an effort to stop it either.

That may be why it's more difficult to make your kind of decision. If there was overt opposition and one felt his or her vision was being cramped, it would be easier to move on. But since present leaders are basically allowing local ministries to present the Gospel in the way they feel is most effective, why leave?

Are these feelings you're going through really about the COG or would you feel strapped by any kind of system? That's not meant to be a question about your integrity or spiritual attitude. There comes a time in some men when they want to launch out - turn their face toward the horizon and go places they've never been before.

Possibly you're that kind of person and it would be good to remember that most of the exploration that took place on our planet was by people just like that.

TWO-THIRDS of "God" is "GO." But can't you do that now without leaving the COG? Those who enjoy going often like to have a place to which they can return.

However, if you feel in your heart going is what you should do, I rejoice with you at that kind of courage and faith. Blessings.

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Acts-celerater Posts: 557 **3/26/07 7:44 pm**

You are going to get many varied and strong opinions here about what you should do. I think you should talk with your leadership, pray together and make a decision. I don't think God will tell you leave or stay, I think God will honor your decision if you do what you feel is right.

Blessings as you work through this very tough decision.

Should I stay or should I go now...

Friendly Face Posts: 145 **3/26/07 9:23 pm**

I think you should go, because I certainly believe the best days of the COG are behind it. Because of patronage, entrenched bureaucracy, corruption, and lack of progressiveness, I could understand your desire to go. I wish you Godspeed and will pray for you.

Acts-celerater Posts: 918 **3/27/07 7:08 am**

I wouldn't be in an organization where I did not fit and did not have peace. Go and do what you need to do. However, you used the word "ignorant" referring to your denominational brethren. That might be accurate and it might not be, and you probably meant to harm...but I caution you not think you are better than they - because God won't bless haughtiness. Be blessed.

A Few Questions That I Think You Should Ask Yourself

Acts-celerater Posts: 813 **3/27/07 7:48 am**

First of all my personal preference in worship/churches leans to more traditional formats, BUT, I whole heartedly believe the church must become all things to all people that we might win some to Christ.
I've been connected to some men who pulled out of the denom, and despite their arguments of tradition/contemporary, obsolete organization, etc., I found it always came down to money! Sad part is many of them have joined independent organizations now, or placed themselves under someone's "umbrella" which require money just as well.

Here are some questions I would encourage you to ask yourself, your sheep, and the Lord:
-Does being the part of the COG hinder what God is calling us to be?
-Has the COG helped us in the past, and in our frustration are we overlooking what they might have done for us?
-Believing the COG needs change, will I be able to effect that change "outside" the COG?
-Is my/our frustration with our local COG connections and could they perhaps be relieved with connects beyond our state/region?
-Is it ME or my people who are frustrated by COG?
-If we leave, to whom will we be accountable?

My experience is you can be anything you want to be in the COG; contemporary, traditional, black, white... never seen anyone from HQ auditing services and congregations to make sure they fit a certain mold.
Now, being different might cause some to reject you, but if you are successful, then as God blesses you they will come around.

Lastly, make a prayerful decision. If you have any doubt, DON'T!

If you can't answer this question...

Member Posts: 46 **3/27/07 8:11 am**

then I suspect you have much larger issues than denominational preference. For example: can you state your model of ministry; what are the practices of your model; what is your mission as a church and what are your core values? Answering these questions ought to assist you in working with your local church leadership in determining the church's future denominational alignment. (Remember, this is more your congregation's decision than yours.)

I understand the need to discuss denominational alignment. However, if you need anyone to convince you to go... or to stay, I fear that you have not truly integrated a model of ministry in to your strategic plans and your mission.

Apart from the percentages...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **3/27/07 8:23 am**

What would you do differently than what you're doing now?

If it's about money, I'm sorry, but that's a lousy reason.

If you don't want to look at it as percentages, look upon it as mission money and ask God to bless it.

But exactly what could you do independent that you're not doing now?

If it's worth doing, you're probably already doing it.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Re: Apart from the percentages...

Acts-dicted Posts: 7821 **3/27/07 8:34 am**

Re: Apart from the percentages...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **3/27/07 8:58 am**

Re: Apart from the percentages...

Acts-celerater Posts: 830 **3/27/07 9:27 am**

Re: Apart from the percentages...

Acts-dicted Posts: 7821 **3/27/07 9:28 am**

I consider myself to be missional minded...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5103 **3/27/07 9:43 am**

But I agree that money is a lousy reason to leave. Seriously, we are saying that money is the reason we can't do things, but we tell the members that if they are obedient in their giving, God will take care of the rest? The COG has gotten 15% for as long as I can remember, it's nothing new. So, if it comes as a surprise to a pastor, it is that pastor's fault. I find it uncanny that we are limiting what God can do without money. He does, after all, own the cattle on a thousand hills. He is the almighty creator, omnipotent Father, and King of everything, but I suppose He can't make our 70% stretch - that just doesn't make any sense. I am not a big fan of giving the 15%, I too wish it were 10%, but it's not. When I plant a church in the COG, I will know going into it that I will give 15% of my tithe to the church, I may not like it, but it's the way it is, and God will honor my obedience. The whole thing about God loving a cheerful giver does include churches and pastors also...not just the members of the body.

Also, when we give the money, it is out of our hands...it's not our money anymore. The leadership will be held accountable before God for their actions once they get it. Just like a member can't dictate to a church what they want their tithe dollars spent on. If we do what is right before God, then we are OK in His sight. Let the people on the other end worry about their own lives and stewardship.

Acts-celerater Posts: 830 **3/27/07 9:52 am**

it's a stewardship issue. i feel like it's bad stewardship to give that much money to the CG. i feel like it's bad stewardship for them to ask for that much.

i also feel that the vast majority of people who are entrepreneurial leaders who are in your church would have a problem with that. they want to know that their money is going somewhere that is making a difference. how are you going to explain that?

maybe it's b/c i don't fully believe in the system...but i wouldn't be able to sell the "why" behind us giving that much to something that makes so little impact.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd

Re: Unidentified...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **3/27/07 10:06 am**

Go Talk to them

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2447 **3/27/07 11:25 am**

Call your Bishop and set up a meeting with him and tell him exactly what you are thinking and feeling. I think that you will know at the end of that meeting whether you should stay or go.

Good stewardship

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5103 **3/27/07 11:33 am**

To me, part of good stewardship is making good on a decision you have made. If you are part of the COG, then part of that decision is committing to send 15% to the organization. In the same way your members give to you. Not just because you make an impact, though I hope you do; not just because you're their friend, though I hope you are; but because it's a commitment they've made. Granted, it's easier for a member to leave the local body than it is for a church to leave the organization, but that does not lessen the responsibility of the body. Like I said earlier, if this were something that the COg had sprung on us unannounced, or a new change to take it up from 10% or something of that nature, I would definitely understand, but it's not. Whenever Unidentified or Travis, or whoever else chose to be a pastor in the COG, they knew this was part of it. It would be like me joining a Mormon church, then being upset when I find out that they have their own Bible.
Also, Kevin, to the best of my knowledge, you aren't part of the COG, so you don't have to "sell" it to you people, but a pastor can sell it with their attitude. Most of the people in local churches have no idea how much or little the COG is involved in their church, but if the pastor has a good attitude about it, the people will too. Anything can be made to sound good or bad depending on the person talking about it. If we have a good attitude, the people will follow that, if we have a bad attitude, they will feed off of that too.

bloom where you are planted

Hey, DOC Posts: 58 **3/27/07 12:26 pm**

I am a great believer in that philosophy when I am trying to determine the direction Holy Spirit is leading me in.
Natureboy is right in pointing back to the leading of Holy Spirit.
I have personally known pastors who have left their denomination - some with what appears to be great success. I have known those who have stayed in their denomination and have had to wait a long time for blessing. The question is what are trying to achieve? If it be God's will, then do as He says and if He has yet to speak - bloom where you have been planted. What's so bad about being different than the other churches in the state? That means you can reach people they never will!! What a blessing for you and the denomination!!
When my husband and I left our home church to pastor, there were many times we, in our flesh, would have liked to jump ship - and we would have gone ahead of Him. I believe we were blessed because we chose to bloom where we planted until He opened the door and as a result we could leave in a biblical fashion - in blessing and not cursing - our home church could let us go forth and we could bless them as we left.
What your path is I can't know but I pray God opens the doors He wants you to go thru & closes those that would lead you astray.
I don't have all the answers 'cause I'm still ...
InProcess

Fellowship Is A Two-Way Street

Acts-celerater Posts: 628 **3/27/07 12:40 pm**

[quote]The fact is, we have no network of churches to associate with, unless we are like the other churches.[/quote]

John Maxwell once said, "If you have a problem with Bill, and you have a trouble with Jane, and you have a problem with John, then maybe you have a problem."

Don't dismiss this too quickly. Fellowship is a two-way street. I seriously doubt that the other churches are rejecting you or are ostracizing you unless your theology is so over the edge that fellowship becomes practically impossible. If this is the case, then perhaps you should consider finding an organization that is more amenable to your theological perspective.
_________________
Mark E Hardgrove, D.Min. PhD
http://conyerscog.org

Re: I consider myself to be missional minded...

Acts-dicted Posts: 7821 **3/27/07 12:52 pm**