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 Question for Post Tribbers |
Curtis Lowe II |
I have a sincere question for those who believe in Post trib. I an honestly trying to grow in my knowledge of the end times. In reading chapter 7 of Revelations tonight I notice some thing.
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If these are people who were martyred during the trib. and the rapture and first resurrection is not until the end of the trib. then how are they already in heaven in their white robes. Could it be that the first resurrection has already taken place and now those who are martyred are resurrected immediately or at least soon after their death and now are also part of the first resurrection of all the righteous as opposed to the second resurrection of the unrighteous?
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"you should've seen it in color"
"Don't taze me bro!" |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 902
9/18/12 9:09 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| People will die for the faith throughout the tribulation. That much is clear. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
9/18/12 9:36 pm
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Acts2Grind |
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 534
9/18/12 11:42 pm
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Christlaw |
I happen to lean more pre-wrath, which is close to posttrib. From my perspective these martyrs will not have received their glorified bodies
yet.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 2:54 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Acts2Grind wrote: | | pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive |
Nowhere does it say he "returns with his bride"
Here's what happens.....
| Quote: |
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
King of Kings and Lord of Lords. |
Here the Lamb is coming for his bride at the end of the Tribulation.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/19/12 5:20 am
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| No one has answered |
Curtis Lowe II |
my question yet.
_________________
"you should've seen it in color"
"Don't taze me bro!" |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 902
9/19/12 10:35 am
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Christlaw |
Sorry I was not clear enough apparently. I see no reason to assume that these martyrs have been resurrected yet. The first resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation/beginning of the millenium (Rev 20).
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 11:15 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | Sorry I was not clear enough apparently. I see no reason to assume that these martyrs have been resurrected yet. The first resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation/beginning of the millenium (Rev 20). |
Ditto
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/19/12 12:44 pm
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| Re: Question for Post Tribbers |
Pastor Nations |
| Curtis Lowe II wrote: | | I have a sincere question for those who believe in Post trib.If these are people who were martyred during the trib. and the rapture and first resurrection is not until the end of the trib. then how are they already in heaven in their white robes. Could it be that the first resurrection has already taken place and now those who are martyred are resurrected immediately or at least soon after their death and now are also part of the first resurrection of all the righteous as opposed to the second resurrection of the unrighteous? |
Simply, there is a distinction between "raptured saints" and "tribulation saints". See also, Rev. 6:9-11.
| Curtis Lowe II wrote: | | I an honestly trying to grow in my knowledge of the end times. |
For light reading and a quick scan: The Panorama Study Course is back in print and available through Oak Knoll Publishing at www.oakknollpublishing.com
For the clarity and importance of the pre-tribulation rapture: find a copy of "Jesus is Coming" by W.E.B., later published as William E. Blackstone, author. First and second editions have better formats than recent reprints (although they are good, also) and are usually availble at www.abebooks.com or www.alibris.com.
For detailed learning: find a copy of "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. My copy has an 18-page table of contents, 583 page book, 14-page bibliography, 11-page subject index, and 23-page scripture index. Perhaps none of us agrees 100.000%, but it is a wealth of knowledge.
Get through these three books and you'll have a good grasp on the subject matter and start to build your own understanding of end times. Btw, it is pre-trib. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 1:45 pm
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Christlaw |
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Pastor Nations |
Just read it - lots of the same post-trib errors. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 3:11 pm
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Christlaw |
I would sincerely invite anyone to point out the supposed post-trib errors in the above article. What I have seen could only be errors if one presupposed the pretrib theory as true.
Since I am living by faith, seeking to walk worthy of the calling, I'm good either way. I promise I won't be upset one bit if the pretrib theory turns out to be correct.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 3:15 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Christlaw wrote: | | I would sincerely invite anyone to point out the supposed post-trib errors in the above article. What I have seen could only be errors if one presupposed the pretrib theory as true. |
Your own suppostion is backwards and a type of false wisdom.
Pre-trib is not a "theory".
When a person fully understands how solidly, thoroughly, and completely the Bible teaches pre-trib, then you understand how and why those other teachings are false.
Btw, the article itself presents false wisdom this way: it falsely pre-supposes, and then denounces, pre-trib as taught by proof-texting - and then uses those supposed proof-texts to attempt to disprove it. It is only a logical conclusion if you swallow the first false supposition that pre-trib is only backed-up by proof-texting, which it is not.
| Christlaw wrote: | | Since I am living by faith, seeking to walk worthy of the calling, I'm good either way. I promise I won't be upset one bit if the pretrib theory turns out to be correct. |
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 2nd Timothy 4:8
I gotta go, be blessed ... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 3:39 pm
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Christlaw |
Okay, if you say so boss. LOL.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 3:46 pm
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Christlaw |
Pretrib is entirely based on inference.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Last edited by Christlaw on 9/19/12 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 3:47 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | Christlaw wrote: | | I would sincerely invite anyone to point out the supposed post-trib errors in the above article. What I have seen could only be errors if one presupposed the pretrib theory as true. |
Your own suppostion is backwards and a type of false wisdom.
Pre-trib is not a "theory".
When a person fully understands how solidly, thoroughly, and completely the Bible teaches pre-trib, then you understand how and why those other teachings are false.
Btw, the article itself presents false wisdom this way: it falsely pre-supposes, and then denounces, pre-trib as taught by proof-texting - and then uses those supposed proof-texts to attempt to disprove it. It is only a logical conclusion if you swallow the first false supposition that pre-trib is only backed-up by proof-texting, which it is not.
| Christlaw wrote: | | Since I am living by faith, seeking to walk worthy of the calling, I'm good either way. I promise I won't be upset one bit if the pretrib theory turns out to be correct. |
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 2nd Timothy 4:8
I gotta go, be blessed ... |
Please show us pre-trib in Matthew 24.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/19/12 4:04 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Pastor Nations wrote: | | Christlaw wrote: | | I would sincerely invite anyone to point out the supposed post-trib errors in the above article. What I have seen could only be errors if one presupposed the pretrib theory as true. |
Your own suppostion is backwards and a type of false wisdom.
Pre-trib is not a "theory".
When a person fully understands how solidly, thoroughly, and completely the Bible teaches pre-trib, then you understand how and why those other teachings are false.
Btw, the article itself presents false wisdom this way: it falsely pre-supposes, and then denounces, pre-trib as taught by proof-texting - and then uses those supposed proof-texts to attempt to disprove it. It is only a logical conclusion if you swallow the first false supposition that pre-trib is only backed-up by proof-texting, which it is not.
| Christlaw wrote: | | Since I am living by faith, seeking to walk worthy of the calling, I'm good either way. I promise I won't be upset one bit if the pretrib theory turns out to be correct. |
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 2nd Timothy 4:8
I gotta go, be blessed ... |
Please show us pre-trib in Matthew 24. |
Sorry, I don't have the time to go through it all again - really learn how solid pre-trib is and then you'll see it for yourself.
Won't be back on this thread - gotta, gotta go - be blessed... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 5:03 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Pastor Nations wrote: | | Christlaw wrote: | | I would sincerely invite anyone to point out the supposed post-trib errors in the above article. What I have seen could only be errors if one presupposed the pretrib theory as true. |
Your own suppostion is backwards and a type of false wisdom.
Pre-trib is not a "theory".
When a person fully understands how solidly, thoroughly, and completely the Bible teaches pre-trib, then you understand how and why those other teachings are false.
Btw, the article itself presents false wisdom this way: it falsely pre-supposes, and then denounces, pre-trib as taught by proof-texting - and then uses those supposed proof-texts to attempt to disprove it. It is only a logical conclusion if you swallow the first false supposition that pre-trib is only backed-up by proof-texting, which it is not.
| Christlaw wrote: | | Since I am living by faith, seeking to walk worthy of the calling, I'm good either way. I promise I won't be upset one bit if the pretrib theory turns out to be correct. |
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 2nd Timothy 4:8
I gotta go, be blessed ... |
Please show us pre-trib in Matthew 24. |
Sorry, I don't have the time to go through it all again - really learn how solid pre-trib is and then you'll see it for yourself.
Won't be back on this thread - gotta, gotta go - be blessed... |
I was "solid pre-trib" from 1980-1989. Then the Lord delivered me from that false teaching as he has many others.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/19/12 5:42 pm
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Christlaw |
I was solidly pretrib all my life until I was in my mid 30s and began studying it in depth. I hope the pretrib theory turns out to be right, but I find the preponderance of the scriptural evidence points towards pre-wrath or post-trib.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 6:52 pm
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Christlaw |
| Quote: | The reader may be interested to know where some of the well known and influential church leaders and theologians have stood on this issue. As previously stated, in examining the teachings and writings from the first 1900 years of Christianity, we can find no Pre-Tribulation doctrine, or interpretation of the Scriptures! Consider for a moment some of the people of whom we are speaking: Polycarp, Barnabas, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles and John Wesley, Matthew Henry, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Knox, and Charles Finney.
In more recent and present times, a few of the men who have rejected Pre-Tribulationism include: George Mueller, Samuel P. Tregelles, Charles Spurgeon, William Booth, G. Campbell Morgan, W.E. Blackstone (who changed from a leading Pre-Tribulation proponent), H.H. Halley, A.B. Simpson, C.T. Studd, Leon Morris, Oswald J. Smith, Francis Schaeffer, Peter Marshall, J.B. Phillips, A.W. Pink, Paul S. Rees. and C.S. Lovett.
Some of the well known and influential Pre-Tribulationists include: J.N. Darby, E.S. English, H.A. Ironside, J.D. Pentecost, J.R. Rice, C.I. Scofield, H.C. Thiessen. R.A. Torrey, and J.F. Walvoord.
While such a list does not, of course, prove or disprove any doctrine, it does illustrate that Pre-Tribulationism is a new doctrine, unknown by the church until the last century, and that this doctrine has not had universal acceptance. http://www.revivaltheology.net/4_eschatology/rapture.html |
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 8:37 pm
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