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Predestination just makes more sense

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/4/14 9:50 am**

I was listening to a Mark Driscoll sermon this morning on the way to work and he was preaching out of Ephesians. He got on the topic of election/predestination and he read a few testimonies of people's salvation experiences in his church. Without fail, they all were extremely far away from God (some even involved in the occult/athiests, etc) and none of them were searching for God. God FOUND them, spoke to them, wooed them and saved them, apart from their own good deeds or efforts. If you look at the salvation stories in the Bible, they are all the same (Paul/Peter/Matthew)...Jesus sought them out and chose them.

So, for those who believe in free will, etc., were you initially seeking God when you were saved? Or were you like me...1,000,000 miles away from God and He chose you, spoke to you, wooed you and saved you apart from anything you had to offer to Him? If we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, do we think our free will trumps His sovereign foreknowledge and election? If He has chosen us, can we resist that choice and use our free will to reject Him?

Last question: can you be Pentecostal and believe in predestination?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/4/14 10:36 am**

Pentecostal theology (like Arminianism), in no way denies that God draws people unto himself by what is called prevenient grace. Nor does Arminianism affirm that we can do anything to deserve salvation. There is no need to assume predestinarianism based on the fact that God draws/leads people unto himself.

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/4/14 10:52 am**

We are chosen IN HIM

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 **2/4/14 11:27 am**

God has chosen that ALL of us would be his children in and through Christ, and He has made that choice known and available to us by sending Jesus and through the gospel. He has chosen us, in Christ, but we must in turn choose to be and/or to remain in Him. We must make our calling and election sure, by and through His grace. His choice that we should be His and be like Jesus is not a coerced or forced outcome, nor is our election a forgone conclusion or rouse. God wants us, and he wants us to ant Him. We can either accept that, and be accepted, or we can resist that or reject it.
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/4/14 11:32 am**

Calvinists do like to insist that their views are strictly biblical, that they are taking "just the Bible" to get their doctrine. It is not necessary in any case for an Arminian/freewiller to deny predestination/election as a biblical truth. Calvinistic predestinarianism is a different thing though.

One certainly cannot deny that God's choice has always been (from before the foundation of the world) that mankind would be holy and blameless before Him. Nor can one deny that God's plan/purpose is that the church be called out and set apart from sinful humanity. But with Calvinism, one must deny that God wants ALL to be holy and without blame before Him in love, and must also affirm that God has created the vast majority of mankind, not to show his great heart of love, but instead to show His indignation and wrath upon them--for being precisely what He unilaterally caused them to be (sinful).

For a thorough and excellent theological and exegetical study on election and predestination from a Christocentric, corporate, conditional perspective, I recommend Elect in the Son by R.L. Shank (who had formerly been a Calvinist seminary professor)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **2/4/14 11:48 am**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6385 **2/4/14 11:56 am**

So who or what shall we believe

1. the bible as God gives one to interpret it
2. A interpretation derived from someone else's perspective

I realize that there is a lot of good guidance from those whom have studied
certain subjects but shouldn't one rely on Gods guidance for the meaning of scriptures.

ie I would take some of the posts above , and prove them with scripture. If they stand then the interpretation is correct.

Since God knows who is predestined and will make it then I would say predestination , from Gods perspective , is 100% truth.

Illustration that might help

Friendly Face Posts: 116 **2/4/14 12:12 pm**

I was eating at a local restaurant with the son of a COG pastor who was rejecting his COG / Pentecostal / free-will heritage for a cessationist, Calvinist theology.

While we were eating, an employee came out and posted a sign on the door, "Checks No Longer Accepted."

I pointed out how the owner of the restaurant opened the business fully expecting people to eat there. In fact, they hoped and desired for EVERYBODY to eat there. They welcomed and accepted anybody who would walk through the doors hungry for a meal. They would advertise and woo people to come in and eat. No doubt they went out and brought friends and family in by the hand. Others just popped in looking for a place to eat. But they all came by their own volition - freedom of choice.

However, once they got there, they were told how they would pay for their meal...and checks were not accepted.

Did the owner choose who could eat there or limit services to anyone? No
Did the owner invite everyone and open the doors to everyone who wanted to come in? Yes
But did the owner predetermine how those he foreknew would come to eat there would pay? yes

Eph 1:4-13 paraphrased
In love [the restaurant owner] predestined [those who choose to eat there] to [pay with cash or credit card], in accordance with his pleasure and will...

...In him we were also chosen [made heirs or benefactors of everything on the menu], having been predestined [to pay with cash or credit card] according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first [to eat the restaurant], might be for the praise of his glory.

God predetermined and predestined the end result of salvation for anyone and everyone who CHOOSES to accept Christ; the end result is conformity to Christ.

Therefore, those who get saved to "go to heaven" miss the point because that is NOT what God has predestined and predetermined the final outcome of their salvation to be. It is predetermined that they will become "like him" (1 John 3). This is the destination of those who choose, whether a result of our searching for him or his searching for us.

This opens the door for "whosoever will."

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4804 **2/4/14 12:14 pm**

Why can't it be both/and??

God chooses people and people choose God.
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **2/4/14 12:17 pm**

Sad truth of Calvinism

Friendly Face Posts: 116 **2/4/14 12:19 pm**

Also, I reminded the guy of his very young children.

What if God has predetermined that the man and hi wife will be saved but his kids will not? How cruel and tragic to realize that nothing he and his wife can do will altar their eternal separation from God. Nothing.

In that case, love them while you have them and try not to picture them in hell - just thank God he chose you and your wife.

Those who lean to predestination and away from free will tend to only consider "them" - meaning those outside the faith - and never "us" - meaning those under their own roof. It's as if "saved people" get married and give birth to "saved people" and vice versa.

But what if God predetermines that the heritage of salvation in your family line ends with you and your kids and grandkids are damned?

Without long generations of people born and raised kin the COG faith, who would be left to serve on the Executive Committee? Wink

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/4/14 12:50 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/4/14 12:51 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/4/14 12:55 pm**

Yep, Predestination is True

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **2/4/14 1:09 pm**

But a fellers gotta git his hermanuetics right.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. (Romans 8:29a, NIV)

Folks is predestined cordin to the foreknowledge a God. God knowin ahead a time what decision folk would make, them what choose to surrender to God, is predestined by God to become sons a God.

Now, hyper-Calvinism, attemptin to elevate the sovereignty a God, takes out the element a human choice. So, to them, God, just fer his own pleasure predestines some to heaven an some to hell (double predestination). Now if God gits pleasure outta predestinin some to go to hell, he violates his own attributes a mercy, grace, love, etc. Pure hyper-Calvinism is not God's plan a salvation.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/4/14 1:17 pm**

Calvinistic theology, at its core, is expressly monergistic and Augustinian; that is, God alone does all, everything that ever occurs is God's will, whether one is saved or not is solely up to God. In Calvinism, grace is understood solely in monergistic terms, and grace ends up being roughly equivalent to fate. Whatever will be, will be, all for His glory.

Arminianism, following closely the lead of the universal teaching of the early church fathers (prior to Augustine in about 400 AD), affirms synergism, that salvation involves man yielding to God's good and perfect will--so that they may be holy and without blame before Him in love.

In Arminianism, grace is certainly affirmed as including the precedent/prevenient grace of God which has appeared unto all men, teaching us to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts (Titus 2:11-13). In Arminianism, man remains free to reject or accept the grace of God which draws all to Jesus. In Arminianism, God's prevenient grace is not seen as unilateral coercion, as in Calvinism. That said, it is simply not the case that in Arminianism, the sinner ever seeks the Lord apart from the grace of God working upon his conscience, in kindness leading him to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

An age old debate in religious circles

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2109 **2/4/14 1:22 pm**

The Sadducees didn't care, this life is all you've got and God doesn't interfere

The Essennes were predestinationist

The Pharisees said God foreordained certain things, events, etc., but man has free will.

Paul's perspective was not either/or but both/and, and is more in line with his Pharisee training.
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/4/14 1:30 pm**

Driscoll made a statement "predestination means that your destiny is predetermined by God".

I kind of had some issues with this. If God arbitrarily destines some people to salvation by His will and good pleasure, what about the people that are not saved? Did He destine them to eternal damnation using this same criteria? Is it His will and good pleasure to see people burn and suffer for eternity, not because of what they've done but because of the choice He made.

To me, it's one or the other. Either God controls everything or we have a choice in the matter and that's where I'm torn. My human brain agrees that humans play some part in their own destiny and God hasn't created robots who are already on a predetermined path. On the other hand, scripture seems to point to the opposite...that God has foreknown, elected and predestined those who would be in Christ, not just those who have chosen Him. And maybe I'm torn because I am saved, so I'm part of the chosen...i might think differently if I wasn't part of the 'elect'.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **2/4/14 1:33 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/4/14 1:37 pm**