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Curly

Acts-dicted Posts: 8625 **3/27/06 1:25 pm**

Fine. But does it align with the plain understanding of scripture? It does not. So, understand all you can, of course, but let's not jump from understanding something to claiming that it is the truth.

Re: Is God a PERSON or PERSONS?

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 **3/27/06 3:51 pm**

Rafael: I think it would be more accurate to say that Yo's view, if I'm understanding him properly, is in fact Arianism, not Modalism (Oneness) per se. He is denying that Jesus is equal with God the Father. (Again, if I'm understanding him properly). That is definitely not the same thing as the Oneness doctrine; i.e., God in three manifestations as opposed to God in three persons.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006

Arianism...

Acts-dicted Posts: 8625 **3/27/06 4:24 pm**

Theolojohn, I would have to admit to being closer to Arianism than to Oneness, I suppose. But let me make a few clarifications in what I believe....

It is my understanding that Arianism claimed that Jesus was NOT divine. I reject that. I claim that Jesus IS divine.

At best (worst?), my position is a highly-modified Arianism. For I claim that Jesus IS God in a variety of senses...only that He is not the PERSON of God.

So, while I AM saying that Jesus is not the PERSON of God (since that would imply, in my thinking, that Jesus is the Son of Himself), I am NOT saying that Jesus is not eternal, divine, and possessing of all the attributes of the substance of which He is comprised.

Here's how it comes down....

We all read the scriptures and are trying to make sense of it. Trinitarianism, Oneness, and my particular position (and perhaps other positions that exist) are simply efforts to explain what we are deriving from scripture.

Just as we come to different conclusions about preordination, OSAS, pre-/mid-/post-trib, tongues as initial evidence, etc., it seems that it is not particulary wrong to come to different conclusions about the nature and makeup of God...SO LONG as it is not in obvious disharmony with scripture.

And my position, while it could be wrong (and I stand open to correction), is not, to my knowledge, contrary to scripture. There may be a better way to understand it all, but I do believe my position holds up fairly well. And I just wish I was free to discuss it out from behind my Web name. But, since that would get me blacklisted, I cannot...and so, if the Trinity IS wrong (as I think it to be), it gets protected unfairly by intimidation.

At least that's my take on it.

Love.

Re: Is God a PERSON or PERSONS?

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 **3/29/06 12:27 am**

Actually, the Arian position was that Jesus was "of similar essence" to the Father, that Jesus was some sort of demi-god, which really sounds very much like your view.

What Arius and the Arians objected to was the inclusion in the Nicene creed (which council Arius and his supporters attended, by the way) was the reference to Christ as "homosexual-ousia," which means, "of the same essence" as the Father. The Arian party tried to insert one letter in the word, making it "homosexuali-ousia," which changed the meaning to "of similar essence/substance." Arius, if my memory serves, likewise asserted that "there was a time when the Son did not exist."

John 1:1 & 14 are quite straightforward. One can only wonder how Arius could have misunderstood such plain statements of the Deity of Christ.

Actually, Arius made some of the same logical errors that I see you making in this discussion. Primarily the misunderstanding of the nature of the Incarnation, and how all Jesus' statements about his subordination to the Father must been seen in light of the Incarnation.

As far as the Oneness teaching (i.e., modalism) they posit "the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ." They say that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are only manifestations of the ONE God.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006

Theolo

Acts-dicted Posts: 8625 **3/29/06 9:55 am**

Then I do differ from Arius, for I claim that Jesus is of the SAME essence as God. Further, in as much as Jesus was at one point indistinguishable from God (perhaps before He was "begotten"), He is fully eternal, as well.

Yes, there was a time when Jesus had not yet issued from the Father, in my understanding. That is, just as Levi was still within Abraham's loins when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizidek, so, too, Jesus was "in" God and can be said to be a full participant in all that God did prior to Jesus issuing from the Father.

That is, Jesus was not CREATED. He is fully eternal with God.