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dtgrant |
Quote peterz3fo:
| Quote: | | I don't think most people involved in this thread can be fluent in both areas. If you can demonstrate the undeniable truth of the resurrection of Christ the Creation issue become peripheral and takes care of itself. |
We somewhat agree with you. It is a given that we all cannot know all things fluently.
But we need not know all the theories/philosophies of man to understand those theories/philosophies are not supported by scripture.
Most people , so far in this thread, merely throw about their opinions on ‘billions of years’. IF they want their theories/philosophies of ‘billions of years’ taken seriously, they need to inform us as to where they place those billions of years within the Bible, so that we all may search the scriptures.
Quote peterz3fo:
| Quote: | | You've missed my point. The issue of creation is too complex to quote some verses and say, "See, look how simple it is!" Most skeptics will laugh at you if you use the Bible as a starting point. Again, establish the credibility of the resurrection and creation takes care of itself! |
We did not miss your point. We agreed that we all have a different approach to witnessing.
We completely DISAGREE that the issue of creation is too complex. That’s what those who have no empirical scientific evidence wants you and me and others to believe. We ain’t being conned by that game.
Those skeptics that laugh at the Word of God have been deceived by the LIE of Satan that God does not exist…
OR have been wrongly taught that the Genesis account of creation is untrustworthy.
Yes, we witness the Gospel of Christ. When creation comes up, we stand on the Word of God.
Quote peterz3fo:
| Quote: | I'll give you an example! Paul!
Check out Acts 17. Paul didn't "use a Bible" to engage the philosophers in Athens. In fact, the only thing he quoted from was THEIR poets. |
WE DISAGREE. Verse 24 is NOT a quote from their poets BUT directly from scripture. Paul was well versed in the Hebrew scriptures (Old Testament of the Bible).
Acts 17:24 (KJV)
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
(donnie & terri grant) |
Friendly Face
Posts: 236
8/21/13 8:03 am
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peterz3fo |
| Quote: |
WE DISAGREE. Verse 24 is NOT a quote from their poets BUT directly from scripture. Paul was well versed in the Hebrew scriptures (Old Testament of the Bible).
Acts 17:24 (KJV)
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
(donnie & terri grant) |
You're looking at the wrong verse. See Acts 17:28 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 395
8/21/13 8:08 am
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Travis Johnson |
Paul quotes Epimenides in Acts 17 to lay presuppositional groundwork for the accepting of the Gospel by pagans as truth. You cannot go to a pagan and use Scripture authoritatively with him (though it is). You have to start at some other foundational truth and bridge them in.
The same goes for those who do not believe that "In the beginning, God created...". BTW, there are only a few people statistically speaking who do not believe there is an Intelligent Designer. And, therein lies an easy bridge for a Gospel skeptic to come over and investigate Christ. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 8:13 am
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dtgrant |
Quote peterz3fo:
| Quote: | | You're looking at the wrong verse. See Acts 17:28 |
You SAID:
Quote:
| Quote: | I'll give you an example! Paul!
Check out Acts 17. Paul didn't "use a Bible" to engage the philosophers in Athens. In fact, the only thing he quoted from was THEIR poets. |
We merely corrected your statement that the ONLY thing Paul quoted was from their poets.
Yes, Paul quoted their poets in Acts 17:28.
BUT, Paul also used Scripture as we pointed out in Acts 17:24.
(donnie & terri grant) |
Friendly Face
Posts: 236
8/21/13 8:21 am
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Troy Hamby |
| just wondering if Dr. Mortensen will be joining the conversation again at any point? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2458
8/21/13 8:27 am
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dtgrant |
Quote Travis Johnson:
| Quote: | | You cannot go to a pagan and use Scripture authoritatively with him (though it is). |
We ask ... Why not?
Quote Travis Johnson:
| Quote: | | You have to start at some other foundational truth and bridge them in. |
We ask… Where does one find ‘some other foundational truth’ concerning creation?
We ask… Who determines what is/is not ‘some other foundational truth’ concerning creation?
(donnie & terri grant) [side note: off to work for now] |
Friendly Face
Posts: 236
8/21/13 8:53 am
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peterz3fo |
| Quote: | We ask… Where does one find ‘some other foundational truth’ concerning creation?
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The Kalaam Cosmological Argument
The Teleological Argument
The Fine-Tuning of the Universe Argument
The Moral Argument
The Transcendental Argument...
Last edited by peterz3fo on 8/21/13 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 395
8/21/13 9:21 am
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peterz3fo |
| repost...sorry |
Friendly Face
Posts: 395
8/21/13 9:22 am
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dtgrant |
Quote peterz3fo:
| Quote: | The Kalaam Cosmological Argument
The Teleological Argument
The Fine-Tuning of the Universe Argument
The Moral Argument
The Transcendental Argument... |
We appreciate your list but to be honest we do not have the time at the moment to do a crash course on each of them. We did look at the first one you listed. Perhaps our question was not clear. Both you and Travis seem to think that one should not use the Bible when witnessing to a pagan/natural man/sinner concerning creation. Travis had said … “You have to start at some other foundational truth and bridge them in.” So, our question was based on his statement. We are asking where is there ‘foundational truth’ concerning creation OTHER than the Bible.
We did a ‘quick’ look at the first item on your list. We are not claiming to understand this philosophy but here is what we gleaned. It is the basic ‘First Cause’ argument.
Kalam Cosmological Argument
1 – Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2 – The universe began to exist.
3 – Therefore, the universe had a cause.
This ‘argument’ is very simplistic (which is good) and it IS supported by scripture
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (First Cause stated simply and clearly)
So, this is not a ‘foundational truth’ relating to creation found outside of scripture. It is the simple ‘foundational truth’ of Genesis 1:1 … even if these fellas with the Kalam Cosmological Argument don’t know it. 
(donnie & teri grant) |
Friendly Face
Posts: 236
8/21/13 6:39 pm
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Travis Johnson |
Dtgrant,
I'm really having difficulty:
1. You are not being fair with words. Where did I ever say, "that one should not use the Bible when witnessing to a pagan."? That wasn't said by anyone. This is the second time you've done that. If we're going to have a conversation in good faith, it requires an honest and fair treatment of one another.
2. The other issue is more aesthetic. Still, I'm having a hard time getting past the representation that you and your wife/husband agree on everything and that you both as a committee write and vet your thoughts in total unanimity and on the fly.
Anyway, I can't make you treat the second observation differently. But, it feels like a fairly repressive posture for either spouse to only be allowed to share opinions that the other spouse agrees with...or to hold the opinion held by the dominant spouse.
But, concerning the first observation, if you're having to lean on misrepresentations of my words to create a basis for your objection, your premise must not be very stout. Again, I can't make you change. But, I will point it out when you misrepresent or misquote me (2nd time in this discussion). |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 9:09 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | | just wondering if Dr. Mortensen will be joining the conversation again at any point? |
Ditto |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 9:10 pm
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bonnie knox |
I think this is a funny thing to get hung up on.
Both husband and wife post under the same user name, but I do believe I've seen each one sign his or her name when he or she was speaking individually. The things that they generally agree on get both their names. I actually think it's cool that they agree on a lot of issues. But so what if the other partner did not agree? Just speak to the post as it's written.
Besides, if one or the other decided he or she wasn't represented fairly, he or she could always get an additional user name.
I don't sense anything AT ALL repressive about this--just a couple who are mature and happen to agree on a lot.
| Travis Johnson wrote: | 2. The other issue is more aesthetic. Still, I'm having a hard time getting past the representation that you and your wife/husband agree on everything and that you both as a committee write and vet your thoughts in total unanimity and on the fly.
Anyway, I can't make you treat the second observation differently. But, it feels like a fairly repressive posture for either spouse to only be allowed to share opinions that the other spouse agrees with...or to hold the opinion held by the dominant spouse. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/21/13 9:28 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| bonnie knox wrote: | I think this is a funny thing to get hung up on.
Both husband and wife post under the same user name, but I do believe I've seen each one sign his or her name when he or she was speaking individually. The things that they generally agree on get both their names. I actually think it's cool that they agree on a lot of issues. But so what if the other partner did not agree? Just speak to the post as it's written.
Besides, if one or the other decided he or she wasn't represented fairly, he or she could always get an additional user name.
| Travis Johnson wrote: | 2. The other issue is more aesthetic. Still, I'm having a hard time getting past the representation that you and your wife/husband agree on everything and that you both as a committee write and vet your thoughts in total unanimity and on the fly.
Anyway, I can't make you treat the second observation differently. But, it feels like a fairly repressive posture for either spouse to only be allowed to share opinions that the other spouse agrees with...or to hold the opinion held by the dominant spouse. |
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Are you hung up on my having a hang up? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 9:38 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Well, not yet... |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/21/13 9:39 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Well, not yet... |
We think you can have a hang up if you like. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 9:41 pm
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bonnie knox |
| I know this is a side trail, but I remember Donnie sharing his testimony on Acts. He and his wife have a totally different life experience from me, and I can picture them doing this forum together. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/21/13 9:42 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Well, not yet... |
We think you can have a hang up if you like. |
Did your account just get hacked? I know Travis Johnson has no truck with people entertaining hang ups!! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/21/13 9:46 pm
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bonnie knox |
Okay, question about old earth--if death came with Adam's sin, there was no death prior to creation; therefore, no fossils.
Question about young earth--how can we see light from stars so far away? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/21/13 9:47 pm
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dtgrant |
Quote Travis Johnson:
| Quote: | Dtgrant,
I'm really having difficulty:
1. You are not being fair with words. Where did I ever say, "that one should not use the Bible when witnessing to a pagan."? That wasn't said by anyone. This is the second time you've done that. If we're going to have a conversation in good faith, it requires an honest and fair treatment of one another.
2. The other issue is more aesthetic. Still, I'm having a hard time getting past the representation that you and your wife/husband agree on everything and that you both as a committee write and vet your thoughts in total unanimity and on the fly.
Anyway, I can't make you treat the second observation differently. But, it feels like a fairly repressive posture for either spouse to only be allowed to share opinions that the other spouse agrees with...or to hold the opinion held by the dominant spouse.
But, concerning the first observation, if you're having to lean on misrepresentations of my words to create a basis for your objection, your premise must not be very stout. Again, I can't make you change. But, I will point it out when you misrepresent or misquote me (2nd time in this discussion). |
We will let your own words speak for themselves. This is the second time you have wrongly accused us of misquoting you. We are having a conversation in good faith. Hopefully you will also.
This is a forum board. When you make statements, we can quote you (correctly and word for word) and offer our comments. You can disagree with our comments but it is wrong for you to accuse us of misquoting you. This is the second time you have wrongly made that accusation.
No, Travis we do not need to lean on misrepresenting your words. Unless we have missed it (that is a possibility) we have not seen you post a position on creation (accompanied with scripture references). Our premise is simple . We actually believe Genesis as written.
Again, we will let your own words speak for themselves.
Travis Johnson posted August 20 @ 1:19 pm:
| Quote: |
Absolutely.
In fact, you can't even begin to use the Bible as the foundational truth (that doesn't make Scripture less authoritative) when dealing with a natural man. A spiritual man? Yes. Someone who has received revelation of Jesus is having these discussions from a different place.
But, a natural man, a skeptic has a different starting point. dtgrant's posture and others who hold a similar posture of communication with a skeptic would be rejected out of hand. |
Travis Johnson posted August 21 @ 8:13 am
| Quote: | | Paul quotes Epimenides in Acts 17 to lay presuppositional groundwork for the accepting of the Gospel by pagans as truth. You cannot go to a pagan and use Scripture authoritatively with him (though it is). You have to start at some other foundational truth and bridge them in. |
(donnie & terri grant) |
Friendly Face
Posts: 236
8/21/13 10:10 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Okay, question about old earth--if death came with Adam's sin, there was no death prior to creation; therefore, no fossils.
Question about young earth--how can we see light from stars so far away? |
My personal sense of creation is an old earth and a young man. I don't see an amoeba climbing out of a swamp, shaving and becoming a truck driver. But, I do see a Genesis 1:1 formless, empty earth that pre-existed the Genesis 1:3 and on creation timeline.
I don't know how exactly. I don't have to know. I'm not going to pretend to know. I'm not going to fill in the blanks with concrete answers that are not mine to give. I can have my thoughts and questions. But, that's all that they are.
In the end, what I do know for sure is that God created it all. I'm comfortable with ambiguity...im OK with seeing through a glass darkly for now because I trust Him. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
8/21/13 10:21 pm
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