Actscelerate.com

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **7/4/13 3:23 pm**

I can imagine a scenario. The manager of a portfolio of accounts who was working with Brother Marshall has a family emergency and turns these accounts over to another bank manager. There is a lot of bad debt, and the new account manager comes across an account of a church that is past due and comes up with the idea of putting some pressure on the denomination to pay up and sends a scary collections email to the denomination to put some pressure on the pastor or the denomination to bring the note current.

But it turns out the account manager's actions lead to the pastor and much of the congregation vacating the premises, making his loan a lot riskier. This might make an interesting business school case study for the narrow niche of managing bank loans.
_________________
Link

AB probably can't put a pastor out in 48 hours...

Friendly Face Posts: 256 **7/4/13 4:48 pm**

In my state you can't just go in and throw out a "tenant", which is basically what a pastor would be considered. Without a written lease he is assumed to have a month to month lease. The "owner" must give 30 days notice prior to the first of a month. Then if the tenant doesn't move out he must go through the eviction process which would be a couple of months.

A church building is different since it is not a personal residence. Anyway, a lot of talk about this is just hot air.

Anyone who has read the minutes knows a pastor could be removed. They seldom are. On the flip side a pastor can be taken from relative obscurity and overnight he becomes well known with a big church. The system has plusses and minuses but we all know how it works.

I think we can do a whole lot more together then we can apart. Stick with the ship!

Re: AB probably can't put a pastor out in 48 hours...

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3658 **7/4/13 5:26 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **7/4/13 7:18 pm**

It appears the answer is none.

Even after contact with the Presiding Bishop of the Church of God, nothing was reconciled.

He accepted the man's resignation.

In our "event" we pettitioned the then General Overseer.

He informed us that he would not interfere with a state overseer's decisions.

Evidently these men can do whatever they desire without accountability.

At least some of them act that way.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Friendly Face Posts: 202 **7/4/13 7:56 pm**

There are a few people who after a 10 minute first time introduction, you know you better watch your back on.... Wink

Link...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **7/4/13 8:52 pm**

Link, I am hesitant to spend any more time on this matter. If these men can't or won't come to terms, then it is useless for us to belabor it. And if they can--and do--it is to be applauded and not second-guessed-to-death!

I said "Church of God" because Bro. Marshall, having received the Holy Ghost in that church (I believe that's what he said) was apparently drawn by the Lord to THAT church. THAT church is not some generic "member of the body of Christ," but a specific church: The Ennis Church of God. And if he was called to THAT church...he needs to be at THAT church.

That's how I feel about it. Not a church that is comprised of former members of the Ennis Church of God, but THE Ennis Church of God. Why? For all I know, God put him there to ensure that that church remains a going concern.

I can tell you that I have seldom seen people who leave on such terms (I am speaking specifically of anger and hurt) continue to prosper. It begins to taint their ministry. Moreover, it can find its way into the new church and wreak havoc. I don't want that for Bro. Marshall! I'm not saying that's the way it will be. But experience (not that least being AJT) tells me that it can follow this path.

At the same time, the Church of God showed very little growth in the years following the 1923 split. We maintained, but the off-the-charts growth we'd experienced before was gone for many, many years. They were meant to be TOGETHER, I think...and lost something special working apart. I hope that Bro. Marshall and Bro. Dority can find a way to mend this. It would be a testimony to God's grace, I'm sure.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **7/4/13 9:48 pm**

You need to come to Summerville Bro Aaron.

Sometimes it is the will of God.

God knew change was coming and He allowed the events of 1989 to transpire.

He preserved what is referred to as Classical Pentecostalism with the establishment of SPWC.

That does not mean we are the only CP church in the county.

We are'nt.

He has blessed and prospered us.

Everything we left He has restored to us.

Every aspect of Church life and ministry.

Sometimes God has a purpose and it may take years to discern it.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4989 **7/4/13 11:38 pm**

Aaron, do you believe that "the church" is an organization on paper? It sounds like that is what you are advocating.

Appeal Process

Newbie Posts: 4 **7/4/13 11:39 pm**

Speaking as one who experienced a similar situation to Pastor Buck 10 years ago, there needs to be some kind of an appeal process for a pastor. I do believe that an AB should have the authority to remove a pastor, and immediately especially in situations of immorality. However, where the reason for removal seems to be nebulous, a structure should be established in the Minutes outlining a process of appeal.

Phillip...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **7/5/13 6:44 am**

I believe in the church universal. I also believe that while the Church of God is part of THE CHURCH...and I also believe that the Church of God is a SPECIAL PART of THE CHURCH.

I have long believed that the Church of God represents a key element in God's restoration of the early Church in modern times. We are not just another dime-a-dozen Pentecostal church (in a manner of speaking). We may ACT that way. We may BECOME that way. We may BELIEVE that way. But I cannot help but believe that God chose the early members of the Church of God (even before they were the Church of God) for a reason.

God could have poured out His Spirit on hundreds of other candidates. But just as Jesus, instead of being born in a palace, was laid in a manger, so, too, did God choose the poor, common folks of the Unicoi mountains to first pour out His Spirit in modern times.

So, again, we are PART of THE CHURCH. But we are, I believe, a SPECIAL part...if we can grasp and receive it.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **7/5/13 7:18 am**

This situation is sad indeed.

It highlights some important questions that are created by a rapidly changing church, society and culture. Is it still realistic, in the long term, for Overseers to have the power to appoint or remove pastors (except in obvious cases such as moral failure or heresy)? For how much longer will smaller churches of less than 300 members expect to be able to pay multiple members of staff? Perhaps these are issues better discussed in other threads.

I am in no rush to judge anyone in this particular scenario. People, even good Christian people, often act badly or unwisely under extreme pressure. They are also likely to misjudge others and jump to erroneous conclusions about their integrity or truthfulness. I know what it is like to pastor a church when a financial collapse means you can't pay your bills. I know what it is like to receive emails from a bank threatening foreclosure. I know what it is like to be an Overseer trying to protect a church from meltdown. I know how it feels to believe you're being forced out of a denomination. I also know what it is to be shown grace and mercy when you're underwater financially.

What I do know is that nothing that has been posted so far indicates that this particular situation is irretrievable or past the point of no return. Feelings are obviously hurt and people are feeling raw, but it seems to me that there is much to be gained if all concerned were willing to talk face to face in a spirit of prayer, humility and reconciliation. The blessings that come from unity are worth it.

Of course such reconciliation is more likely to occur if the rest of us can refrain from hearing half a story and then slinging epithets around or seeing this as a handy opportunity to air our hangups with pastors, overseers, or the denomination in general.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland

http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/

Two more cents worth

Acts-celerater Posts: 854 **7/5/13 7:55 am**

I've been reading this thread with much interest as to how various people have responded. Some advocate for reconciliation while others seem to like (and even relish) the fact that another congregation is leaving the COG.

One needs to be mindful of the fact that we have only one side of the story. Anyone who has been in the pastorate for more than a minute knows there are always at least two sides. However, the AB probably isn't going to post his side (and in my opinion he shouldn't) on this or any other message board. Perhaps this is a case where the call for the minutes of state council meetings to be public would be to the advantage of the state office, because the AB is at distinct disadvantage in terms of publicly defending his actions.

I don't know Buck and I'm not suggesting his account is in error, but there remains another perspective, and other facts related to this story, that we simply do not have. So I do not presume to say what Buck or the AB should do. However I do wonder what I would do in a similar situation. I hope I never have to find out.
_________________
Mark E. Hardgrove, D.Min., Ph.D.
Senior Pastor Conyers Church of God
http://www.conyerscog.org
Dean & VP for Academics at BHU
http://www.beulah.org/

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **7/5/13 10:35 am**

When Bro Park writes, I read. We should all observe.

This much I know for certain. It is never God's will nor method for the body to be at war with itself. Every time that happens the flesh has not only entered in, but has taken over. I am not throwing rocks at any person in this particular instance.

NONE of us are equipped for every job. We know this. But somehow in the church we think the pastor is the guru for everything. Non-sense. ALL of us hold our treasure in earthen vessels.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1037 **7/5/13 11:54 am**

Nick Park and Bro Bob have both posted an excellent viewpoint on this situation.

Thanks to both of you!

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 **7/5/13 12:03 pm**

Bro Bob wrote:

Member Posts: 46 **7/5/13 1:29 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1037 **7/5/13 6:49 pm**

State Council

Friendly Face Posts: 153 **7/5/13 11:34 pm**

If you have live in Texas long and been a member or pastor in the Church of God you the council controls the AB.Has been that way for years. When the same men rotate on the council all the time you know who's in charge.

Just think

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1815 **7/6/13 12:34 am**

If the New Hope Church of God could in a short period of time, upon being notified that the pastor was going to be removed, then could rally together to pay current all the bills of the church, why did they not do this to remain in the location they were in in the first place?

Is the New Hope Church(minus the "of God") still responsible for the bank note/debt? Did the pastor sign that note? Trustees of the church? Was the loan in New Hope name or Ennis Church of God? It is obvious the note was underwritten by the state. That is why the AB was contacted. Now All of the Texas Church of God must pay for that loan because a church congregation decided that they were no longer going to and left it high and dry.

Another thing to think about. The bank could have at anytime called the full note due, especially since it had been in default for months. Anytime you are late on a loan payment, you are in default. It is at that banks discretion as to when and if to call that note due or not. This thing has been a ticking bomb for months. It finally exploded. Explosions are always destructive. Now we must see what has remained and what can be salvaged. Will there still be a Church of God in Ennis?

Now think about this. Most states have loans they have underwritten. If some of those large loans go into default, We, the Church of God will pay. To many of those will sink this great ship called the Church of God.

Maybe it is time for individual churches to stand on their own. No underwriting by the Church of God. If they make it, great. If not, well, hopefully that would not happen to to many. Let's fix this.

Let me also say

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1815 **7/6/13 12:45 am**

I would like to see this pastor and congregation stay with the Church of God. It is obvious that they have proven they can raise the funds and pay the bills. They just needed a reason. Or might we say a fire lit underneath them. It appears to me that that decision to stay was left in their court and they chose not to stay with the Church of God. They need to carefully reconsider this decision.