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Well OTCP

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **3/26/16 5:43 pm**

I want to say I disagree with your writings. I will say it again for clarity purposes, I do not subscribe to all of the WOF doctrine but when it comes to healing, I thought classical Pentecostals like the COG and AG and PH etc had in their statement of fundamental truths/doctrine a statement that reads to the effect of something like this from the AG:

"WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins)."

So, how is it WOF to teach people Jesus healed the sick then and still does today? Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME, yesterday, today and forever. If you do not believe that it is God's Will to heal then perhaps you need to find another denomination that is more closely aligned with your viewpoints and quit watering down ours to try to fit your small ideas about God. I'm sure the Southern Baptists would be happy to have you. AND, if it is God's will to heal then my verses from 1 John 5 are appropriate. If we know what His will is and pray according to that will He hears us and if we know He hears us we KNOW we have the petition we asked of Him.

As to what to say to someone who prayed in faith and saw no results except the pain of loss, you will have to take that up with God. I pray often for people and they aren't healed. On the other hand , I pray often for people that are healed. Why? What was the difference? I don't have an answer for you. When Job asked God the answer he got still rings in my ears - " Where were you when I made creation?" is the essence of it. In other words, we have no right to question God. I know that will not suffice a hurting woman or man but it is the case. Jesus only did what He saw the Father doing. SO, if He went about healing ALL that were sick and oppressed of the devil, He did it as a response to what He observed the Father doing. Ergo, it must be the NATURE of God to heal the sick.

Why aren't all healed? THat is the million dollar question. But if you have to have an answer for that, you will never find one. It is not found in the sovereignty of God either. Don't blame God. We know not everything, all we can do is observe and teach His revealed will. His revealed will is that He is the Lord our Healer.

I have told my family and my church that I pray and the rest is up to God. I believe and teach it is His will to heal, that He provided for it in the Atonement and that Jesus hasn't changed, so expect to be healed. But if you aren't don't walk about in condemnation (lack of faith, sin or something else) just continue to pray, persevere and believe God's Word and will. If I am sick and you pray for me and I fall over dead right there, step over my body and pray for the next person in line with the same or better faith than you prayed for me. God is not a liar. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy but Jesus came to bring us life and that more abundantly. I know it hurts to pray and believe God and when nothing happens you wonder if the Word of God is true. Let me tell that woman, it is. And I do not know why her loved one died. God loves her and unfortunately only He know the reason. I would tell her to love God, trust God anyway and know that we will see them again some day. Keep your faith in God and understand that not everything this side of heaven can be understood.

If you no longer believe the Word of God regarding healing, then quit praying for the sick. Return your credentials and go find another place of ministry more suited to your lack of understanding. Not being harsh just speaking the truth in all the Love I can muster.

Re: Well OTCP

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **3/26/16 6:51 pm**

You know OTCP

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **3/26/16 7:43 pm**

that you are 100% incorrect about your interpretation of Paul's thorn. Seriously, for someone who has a deep understanding of scripture and an intellect of some renown among men, you are being obtuse regarding this. You cannot rightfully exegete the Word where Paul discusses his thorn and come up with the idea that he was somehow sick! We can agree to disagree on the other stuff but this is ridiculous. Paul quite clearly told us what his thorn was - it was a messenger (read demon) sent from hell to torment him to keep him humble lest he become puffed up in his mind because of the enormity of revelation he had seen/received in the third heaven of God. To come up with the outlandish SB doctrine that Paul had bad eyes or was otherwise ill strains the interpretation beyond the breaking point. Infirmities in that verse deal with the weaknesses of his flesh or actually the realization that as a mere human he had nothing to glory in, therefore as he was weak God could be strong thru him. You create an erroneous straw man to then try to justify your preconceived ideas on healing. It isn't so my brother, it isn't so.

BTW I would also challenge your your assertion about what the WOF teaches regarding healing. While some and I repeat some idiots have said what you say, by and large the vast majority do not hold to that teaching any longer if they ever did. It is NOT just lack of faith or sin, and I do not know of anyone who guarantees 100% healing. They do teach it is God's will to heal and they believe faith is a key component but they also teach that there are multiple other reasons why people are not healed. In F F Bosworth's book Christ the Healer and in T L. Osborn's book based on the same (Healing the Sick) both list over 100 reasons why people are not healed without putting the onus just on the individual's lack of faith.

Re: You know OTCP

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **3/26/16 8:28 pm**

Re: Well OTCP

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/27/16 1:18 am**

I have read Gordon Fee and Donald Gee

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **3/27/16 12:33 pm**

And like you, don't pretend to have all the answers bur still believe that Jesus healed them all and told us to go and do likewise. The power of the resurrected Christ lives in all of us who are filled with His Spirit but we live in a fallen world where the enemy of our souls continues to reign unfortunately.

To OTCP Paul as a student of Gamaliel surely knew the OT as it related to Israel and God's admonition to the Israelite to drive out the inhabitants of Canaan or else they would fall spiritually not physically per se. God used an allegory to make his point Num.33: 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. AND Joshua 23:13 13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. AND JUDGES 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

So, when Paul mentions a thorn in the flesh it is a metaphor drawn from these verses about a spiritual battle. A demon sent to torment him as the Canaanite especially would torment the people of Israel, yes in the flesh but God was more concerned about how they would draw Israel away from Him in their religious life, a spiritual battle. HAPPY RESURRECTION DAY.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **3/27/16 1:48 pm**

Re: I have read Gordon Fee and Donald Gee

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **3/27/16 9:47 pm**

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **3/28/16 9:31 am**

I know now you won't change your mind but I am not stretching anything. The OT texts were certainly known to Paul who was obviously a learned scholar and the fact he uses the SAME exact expression to describe a similar issue in his own life is an extremely credible exegesis of the text. No elasticity there needed. Your refusal to concede the point merely reflects your stubbornness to see something that challenges your pre-conceived ideas. Love you though but you're still wrong hope you had a great Resurrection celebration in Pikeville, as we did in NC.

Re: OT

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **3/28/16 10:01 am**

Her understanding is a misunderstanding

Friendly Face Posts: 115 **3/29/16 6:53 am**

Wayne, what she understands to be true is a misunderstanding of so many who believe that everything that Jesus Christ purchased for us, is only to be received in this life. But, my understanding of the Scriptures is that everything He purchased for us is in eternity.

Like the down payment on anything, what is initially received is not fully possessed until the finality of the contract. By faith, we have received the initial enjoyment of all that Christ has purchased, but until the "contract" is completed with the second coming of Jesus Christ, we will not fully possess all that He has purchased for us in eternity.

We may have received a healing here, but its effects are temporary based upon the constraints of this existence. However, in eternity, our healing is eternal and never ceases. Our salvation here is claimed and testified by us through our lifestyle and more, but seemingly is without merit when we die. But at death, we have just begun to live, as our salvation continues to reveal itself in His presence and its fullness is received at His second coming.

Paul said it best, "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete...But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless [or completed]." (I Cor. 13:9-10 NLT) The word in brackets is mine helping me to better understand the whole of the text.

Until she takes a complete look at the Word of God, and if she continues to hold onto the unbalanced view of a guaranteed healing in this life and existence, she is going to find more things to be mad at God about. I appreciate your heart as a good shepherd trying his best to help a wounded sheep. God bless you for that!

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **3/29/16 7:19 am**

Thank you Paul and others for your assistance with this lady.

She really is a good hearted person but when her mom passed, she went off the rails. In and out of mental institutions, causing a very negative impact on her family, strained marriage and a dependency on mental medications. It's sad really because at one time she was a very intelligent lady but now, she often just exists.

As I mentioned before, I have had my own true encounters with God on this subject and truly, I needed the dream He gave me to fully understand His will. I didn't get the answer I wanted but I understand how He wanted it to play out and for some reason I was good after than. I have heard from others who have had similar experiences.

Help me pray that God give her a dream an understanding of what happened. I would really like to see her delivered from this dark hole that she is in.

thanks for listening and assisting.

Friendly Face Posts: 115 **3/29/16 8:44 am**

You're welcome brother!

When my mom passed away in 1992, at age 52, I didn't understand why. I had 45 minutes earlier before she died, called on God in prayer for her healing. I remember telling God that I wasn't gonna tell Him how to do His job. I knew then, and now, He has all the power to heal her.

We were told she was going to go into violent seizures and that it would not be a pretty sight or memory. I went into a vacant room across the hall and just simply asked God, "If You are going to heal her, then would You please give her the ability to literally get up out of her bed and walk out of here, totally healed. But if that's not what you're going to do, would you please let her pass peacefully, with no seizures? Hasn't she suffered enough through all she's been through?" Like I said, 45 minutes later she passed away; peacefully. In fact, as she drew in her last breath and exhaled, she opened her eyes widely and took in a panoramic view from right to left, and said, "Oohhh!!!"

One day I'll see what she saw. But one thing I know, in heaven, she has no cancer, and she is suffering no more. Praise the Lord! Please, come back quickly Lord!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/29/16 9:29 am**

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **3/29/16 10:57 am**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **3/29/16 11:38 am**