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| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Does he have the authority to? Or the sense not to? I prescribe to the headship principle as a call to sacrifice and leadership through example and servant-hood as Christ modeled it, and to submission as being each to the other. Forced "submission" is not submission at all. If the husband can't ask his wife to not go somewhere without consideration from her, then he's already forfeited his "authority" somewhere else down the line through some action that was NOT Christlike. A husband can't claim Christ's authority without acting like Christ. |
Questions from the author:
"If the husband is the head--the ruler--in the home, who regulates him? Who determines if his headship is actually comparable to the headship of
Christ? The husband himself? Is he alone the interpreter of the biblical
standard? Is he the judge and jury in his own court case? Is he the
referee, the umpire, in his own ball game? Is he absolutely unbiased?
Who determines exactly what male headship entails in each situation? Is
there a written or unwritten standard for twenty-first- century domestic
situations? At what point, if ever, does his behavior make his headship
invalid? Indeed, what are the consequences when husbands fail to live
up to this standard?" |
I could ask the same set of questions about anyone in a position of leadership, authority, including parents or governmental officials. Asking the questions may lead to some interesting discussion, but they don't do away with the 'submission' commands in scripture.
Are we all in agreement, before we delve into this, that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything?
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Acts-perienced Poster
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3/9/16 12:45 pm
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Link |
I'd just like to point out, in spite of the thread title, there are and have been historically, multitudes of Christian husbands who love their wives who believe that their wives should submit to them. And there have been multitudes of wives who submitted to their husbands without being beaten black and blue.
Christ is the example.
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3/9/16 12:47 pm
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bonnie knox |
| For years, Dr. Ruth Tucker hid the abuse. She wore clothes to cover the bruises. People who knew her did not know she was abused by her husband. She suspects that many would not have believed her even if she had told them (back in the 1980's when this occurred). Her husband was a charming, intelligent, witty evangelical minister. Who would have thought? |
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Posts: 14803
3/9/16 1:05 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Let me ask you something, Bonnie. The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands in everything. Do you think it would be right for a husband to refuse to submit to her husband if he told her he wanted to hold her cell phone or car keys. |
Do you think a wife should submit to being thrown against the wall or thrown to the floor? |
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3/9/16 1:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Are we all in agreement, before we delve into this, that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything? |
I do not agree that a wife must submit to being thrown against the wall or thrown to the floor or having her face punched. I can probably think of some other exceptions as well. |
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Posts: 14803
3/9/16 1:09 pm
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Patrick Harris |
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Does he have the authority to? Or the sense not to? I prescribe to the headship principle as a call to sacrifice and leadership through example and servant-hood as Christ modeled it, and to submission as being each to the other. Forced "submission" is not submission at all. If the husband can't ask his wife to not go somewhere without consideration from her, then he's already forfeited his "authority" somewhere else down the line through some action that was NOT Christlike. A husband can't claim Christ's authority without acting like Christ. |
Questions from the author:
"If the husband is the head--the ruler--in the home, who regulates him? Who determines if his headship is actually comparable to the headship of
Christ? The husband himself? Is he alone the interpreter of the biblical
standard? Is he the judge and jury in his own court case? Is he the
referee, the umpire, in his own ball game? Is he absolutely unbiased?
Who determines exactly what male headship entails in each situation? Is
there a written or unwritten standard for twenty-first- century domestic
situations? At what point, if ever, does his behavior make his headship
invalid? Indeed, what are the consequences when husbands fail to live
up to this standard?" |
I could ask the same set of questions about anyone in a position of leadership, authority, including parents or governmental officials. Asking the questions may lead to some interesting discussion, but they don't do away with the 'submission' commands in scripture.
Are we all in agreement, before we delve into this, that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything? |
I would not be in agreement. Probably no surprise though. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
3/9/16 1:32 pm
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Poimen |
A review of the book by Tim Challies HERE.
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Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
3/9/16 7:03 pm
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bonnie knox |
| A response to Tim Challies by Ruth Tucker HERE. |
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3/9/16 8:40 pm
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | What power and authority does the husband have over his wife? Keys, phone. |
I don't think that would generally be a healthy thing to do in a relationship. |
Ats right funny, Link. Cause last time I hid momma's keys an cellphone, son, it got real unhealthy in Pikeville. I mean, the ole timer was dodgin stuff fer hours. Anything that wasn't nailed down momma was grabbing an throwin. Just as I went through the front door momma's iron skillet clipped me just above the left ear.
Three days later I woke up in ICU.
Momma's had her keys/cellphone ever since.  |
Acts-pert Poster
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3/9/16 10:45 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Ole Timer, if ya really want ta keep up with tha times, ya got ta start callin jus plain gittin along or gittin on good together as "havin a healthy relationship." 'At's what folks is a callin it these days. It's a right smart embarrassin ta talk about an all, but ya jus have ta pertend ya know bout them things iffen ya wanna look up ta date an all. |
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3/9/16 11:06 pm
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Link |
| Quote: | | Patrick Harris wrote: | | Are we all in agreement, before we delve into this, that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything? |
I would not be in agreement. Probably no surprise though. |
Who are you not in agreement with?
Ephesians 5
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
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Last edited by Link on 3/10/16 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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3/10/16 12:17 am
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bonnie knox |
| Link, do you agree that a wife should be subject to her husband's physical battering? When you ask Patrick if he is disagreeing with Ephesians 5:24, you are exhibiting the characteristic described by the title of the book. The beating of a woman till she's black and blue is justified by a black and white view of the Bible. |
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3/10/16 8:23 am
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Patrick Harris |
| Link wrote: |
Who are you not in agreement with?
Ephesians 5
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. |
I'm not in agreement that the verse referenced has the same context today and that wife has the duty to be subject to her husband in every matter.
My marriage is built on trust, commitment and making decisions together.
If I told my wife to hand over her cell phone or car keys because I'm the head of the household and she needs to submit, I would expect a serious issue in our relationship. |
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Posts: 1323
3/10/16 9:09 am
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Link, do you agree that a wife should be subject to her husband's physical battering? |
What does getting beaten up have to do with submission? If someone punches someone else in the face, submission isn't what knocks the other one to the floor. Brute force does. Submission is something one chooses to do. It is no physical violence.
| Quote: |
When you ask Patrick if he is disagreeing with Ephesians 5:24, you are exhibiting the characteristic described by the title of the book. The beating of a woman till she's black and blue is justified by a black and white view of the Bible. |
That's a pretty nasty thing to say, to paint me as justifying violence in marriage to justify violence. If you think Ephesians 5:24 justifies violence in marriage, then you should be in favor in violence in marriage. I don't read that idea into the verse. Insinuating that someone is pro-wife beating is not a nice thing to do.
We were talking about whether a husband could tell his wife to give him the keys or phone. I referred to a verse that says a wife is to submit to her husband in everything. That doesn't mean a man is okay for a man to beat his wife.
I also believe that children are supposed to submit to their parents. But I suppose someone who was against that idea could bring up stories of children beaten black and blue by parents. I could find people who had stories about children who believed they were supposed to obey their parents whose parents abused them. The thing is, if we discussed child abuse, we'd probably all be operating from a Biblical foundation of children submitting to their parents.
The difference is, when it comes to this issue, is that some people who are against wives submitting to their husbands will bring up these spousal abuse cases to argue against wives submitting to their husbands. When some people in a discussion start from that premise, the idea of 'submission' gets muddied. In our discussion, you talk about submitting to being beaten. I wonder how many people think that when someone talks about a wife submitting to her husband, there is a good chance that person believes in wife-beating. That's one of my concerns with this topic.
A Christian's response to abuse in marriage should not be to abandon the teaching of scripture on the role of husbands and wives.
David and Saul weren't married, of course, but since Saul was the king, David was to submit to him. Saul tried to kill him, and David went back to serve Saul. When David saw things weren't changing and his life was in danger, he fled and stayed away as long as his life was in danger. But he did not try to overthrow Saul's reign while he was still alive. He recognized Saul as the Lord's anointed (anointed through the same person who had anointed him, actually) and would not lift his hand against him. David did take steps to preserve his own life.
I don't believe abuse in a marriage makes it not adultery to put away one spouse and marry another. The Bible doesn't teach that. I also do not believe that abuse in marriage is the unpardonable sin. Being wife and children is highly stigmatized, and that's a good thing.
We also need to have a realistic picture when dealing with abuse. A large number of domestic abuse cases involve violence of women towards men as well. This article puts the number at 40%. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence.
Violence toward men may often go unreported, as well. Police may not take reports of it seriously. Men who report violence may go away in handcuffs as well after the police arrive on the scene. A certain number of abuse cases where a man hit a woman occur after the woman has been physically abusive for a long time against a man. It's not always the case of the Lifetime TV movie bad-guy monster husband who constantly beats and abuses his wife. There are abusive men out there, but we need to realize there all kinds of situations. There are women who will hit their husbands repeatedly, men taught not to hit girls. The man finally snaps and hits back. She calls the cops. Then some church folk will tell her she's justified in leaving him and marrying someone else.
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3/10/16 9:26 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | What does getting beaten up have to do with submission? |
Maybe you should read Tucker's book. That's pretty much what her book is about. |
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3/10/16 11:46 am
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bonnie knox |
This was the question of the author of the book. She has her reason for asking the question. She was battered for 19 years. You can bring up all kinds of other scenarios, but this woman has her story to tell.
| Quote: | | We were talking about whether a husband could tell his wife to give him the keys or phone. I referred to a verse that says a wife is to submit to her husband in everything. That doesn't mean a man is okay for a man to beat his wife. |
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3/10/16 11:55 am
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c6thplayer1 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Thats exactly my thought. As you said "put her first. and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
Not if she's not doing the same for you. Otherwise, you have a one-sided marriage with one giving partner and one taking partner. You took half of what I said. |
Let me ask you something. If a neighbor mows your yard a trims it all real neat and tells you no charge I really just appreciate being your neighbor. Would you not want to do something nice for your neighbor? any decent person would and the same applies to marriage. And one who counts favors from another and just returns the same amount needs a little counseling. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
3/10/16 11:57 am
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bonnie knox |
When women who have been abused are counseled to try being more submissive as the appropriate measure to take against the abuse, that links the violence and abuse. That is what the church in countless cases has told abused wives. If that is wrong, call it out.
http://natesparks130.com/2015/11/17/not-all-comps/ |
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3/10/16 12:01 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | A Christian's response to abuse in marriage should not be to abandon the teaching of scripture on the role of husbands and wives. |
If the first response you have to someone who has been abused is to make sure they are fulfilling a prescribed role, you have a heart problem.
If there is disagreement on what the Bible says about "roles," can't we at least agree that God's intent for marriage does not include abuse?
You are judging those who don't interpret the Bible the same way you do as abandoning the teaching of scripture.
I say some ways of interpreting scripture lead to an abandonment of the intent of scripture. |
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3/10/16 12:11 pm
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| hmmmm |
wayne |
If Ruth Tucker would have knocked that piece of garbage-great evangelist out early on she wouldn't have endured so many beatings.   My momma would have taken everything she had to that man and I guarantee you it would have stopped.
That's not respect and that has nothing to do with submitting. That preacher should have been talked to by his leadership and if he did not stop - his license and preaching privileges should have been removed.
The stuff we allow the enemy and his imps do to us simply amazes me  . |
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3/10/16 12:24 pm
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