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 When was the last time you read through the Minutes and checked your church for compliance? |
Dave Dorsey |
Do you consider it necessary to be in full compliance with the Minutes? If so, when was the last time you checked your church over, and what would you do if you found a discrepancy in your approach to ministry?
If not, what parts do you consider necessary and what parts are maybe more flexible?
What is your AB's take on alignment with the Minutes? How often, if ever, does he check up on you? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
7/13/19 2:10 pm
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tryingtofitin |
| You have way to much time on your hands... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 174
7/13/19 4:16 pm
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Cojak |
I was a builder for many years. Once buildings were built and given the 'occupancy approved signature,' no one checked again, ever. Even unauthorized open repairs and additions were not questioned UNLESS SOMEONE COMPLAINED!
I assume that is how our leadership is, and maybe should be. I don't know. The wheel isn't greased until there is a squeak.
I do know of one or two that are way off track, if they were questioned, the church would be independent in a week. We have a few men who know how to organize and build without Cleveland on their deed. 
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
7/13/19 5:42 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Dave, do you attend or support any type of Church of God ministry or church?
If so, have you asked your pastor this same question?
My name is here so it's not a pen name but I'm sure that most of us have a few things we could clean up if that were the high priority of the day lol.
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"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 6:46 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Dave, do you attend or support any type of Church of God ministry or church?
If so, have you asked your pastor this same question?
My name is here so it's not a pen name but I'm sure that most of us have a few things we could clean up if that were the high priority of the day lol. |
I really don't understand the negativity/defensiveness here.
1) I have a friend who is doing undergrad work at Lee and we talk routinely about his coursework. He is going through a class right now on the Minutes and he has been sharing things with me along the way that have jumped out at him.
2) I posted this as a conversation starter. I was curious about the spectrum of attitudes here toward the minutes. In my experience with the COG I have experienced a broad range of it. |
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Posts: 13654
7/13/19 6:49 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Dave, as the old lesson goes ...don't read emotion into a response.
Nothing negative implied.
Do you attend a CoG ministry? Not asking which one just asking if you regularly support one?
Besides, I semi-answered you in a round-about way.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 7:06 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
No to attend, yes to support. Not sure why it matters -- my reason for posting this thread was to generate discussion on a board that is a respite for many COG ministers, many of whom post under pen names and can safely engage this topic without any threat of repercussion against them.
My Lee friend's take is that many would lose their credentials if the COG suddenly decided to take a strict approach to the Minutes. The COG is obviously pretty lax generally toward the Minutes, and I assume that probably varies AB to AB. Hence the AB question.
It's a discussion board, Dean.  People of all backgrounds are going to ask all kinds of things. I was a member of a COG from 2004 until 2017 and was deeply involved in ministry at that church. I think I have a right to start discussions, too. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
7/13/19 7:11 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | No to attend, yes to support. Not sure why it matters -- my reason for posting this thread was to generate discussion on a board that is a respite for many COG ministers, many of whom post under pen names and can safely engage this topic without any threat of repercussion against them. |
I'm sure your motives are genuine.
It only matters from a certain viewpoint, to which as a pastor, one wants to know who is asking the question.
If I remember right you were a bit flustered one time when I doubted the importance of the Pope & I mentioned something about him making sure for himself that he has a right relationship with God ...to which you seemed out of sorts with my comment.
For one thing I don't believe all catholics (including the pope) are saved & on their way to heaven just because they quote scripture & attend mass.
Same applies to many so called christians.
In the past I've seen you take a hard line on people when you were a mod & you even (ban) threatened me one time ...so much for the 1st amendment.
You most likely don't agree with my assertion but this is how you came across on certain issues ...lately I see a kinder version of Dave, something like 67% of the time
When people ask these types of questions my ears perk up a little more & I ask myself, 'who wants to know?'
Will my response lead to an issue in my state? Most likely not.
As a matter of fact we recently went through & started doing some in-house cleanup on issues related to the minutes & we began with membership.
I can also go on record by saying my AB is welcome to set up a time with me & we'll go over the minutes & how they relate to my church in it's role with the CoG.
We have nothing to hide here & I'll submit these books to him or his appointed trustees if it were asked of me.
Going to sound grand standish I suppose but for quite a while we've been looking for better ways to cooperate & work in balance with our denominational covenant.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 7:32 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | If I remember right you were a bit flustered one time when I doubted the importance of the Pope & I mentioned something about him making sure for himself that he has a right relationship with God ...to which you seemed out of sorts with my comment. |
Think you've got your wires crossed here, Dean, if you think I'm a papist or you think I believe people (including the pope) are saved and on their way to heaven because they attend church or quote Scripture.
I don't have any idea whether the pope is born again. JP2 seemed like he might have had a genuine relationship with Christ. No idea about any pope since then, and no clue where you pulled this one from. |
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Posts: 13654
7/13/19 7:45 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | If I remember right you were a bit flustered one time when I doubted the importance of the Pope & I mentioned something about him making sure for himself that he has a right relationship with God ...to which you seemed out of sorts with my comment. |
Think you've got your wires crossed here, Dean, if you think I'm a papist or you think I believe people are saved and on their way to heaven because they attend church or quote Scripture. |
Sorry Bro, I clearly remember it.
But in terms of your statement, I never said any of those things you just purported.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 7:49 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quote: | For one thing I don't believe all catholics (including the pope) are saved & on their way to heaven just because they quote scripture & attend mass.
Same applies to many so called christians. |
I said this part about my own opinion ...I wasn't assigning this to you.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 7:52 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dean, since the day I got saved in January of 2004 I have never for one moment thought the pope had any importance or significance to the faith. You're free to believe what you want but you're dead wrong. |
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Posts: 13654
7/13/19 7:56 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Dean, since the day I got saved in January of 2004 I have never for one moment thought the pope had any importance or significance to the faith. You're free to believe what you want but you're dead wrong. |
No Dave, I'm sorry to dispute you but you were once indignant with me over a comment I made regarding a decision that this current pope had made.
In the discussion that ensued on this board I made a comment about how could someone in the office of papal Rome claim to know Christ & serve in the office of the pope. I went on to say if that were the decision of the pope I would doubt his relationship with God.
To which you replied, "Wow Dean, wow! I can't believe you could say this. I don't even want to discuss this with you."
I remember it clearly.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 8:18 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Ok Dean, I'm sure you would know better than me. I probably just forgot about the fact that I hold/held a position way outside Protestant orthodoxy. You know how easy it is to let that kind of thing slip. Thanks for clearing it up buddy. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
7/13/19 8:25 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Really not nit-picking you Bro, but you thought I was being negative/defensive & I truly wasn't.
Oddly as it can be, my AB just now called me about some other things (all positive) but my gut jumped inside me & I thought for a second, 'is the AB trolling Acts right now?' haha
After all the sidetrack at the end of the day in response to your OP the facts are we have been out of step (a little) & we're bringing it all back in to place.
I'm sure that for most small churches some of the top issues are probably:
1. Clerk responsibilities (not the pastor's wife)
2. Church elections verbatim via the CoG minutes
3. Compensation issues (housing, social security, retirement, insurance)
4. Church repairs when they're extensive - not our deeded R/E property
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/13/19 8:36 pm
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Cojak |
I really think that most of our smaller churches are on auto pilot with the minutes. I don't think there would be ANY finger pointing unless it is brought to the Overseer's attention that a pastor would TEACH Sanctification openly as progressively, but I think the majority are migrating that direction (something very obvious like that.)
I think Dean has the right list when he said:
I'm sure that for most small churches some of the top issues are probably:
1. Clerk responsibilities (not the pastor's wife)
2. Church elections verbatim via the CoG minutes
3. Compensation issues (housing, social security, retirement, insurance) 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
7/13/19 9:27 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Most Church of God preachers.
Preach progressive Sanctification.
My church operates via our Constitution and by-laws.
To the letter.
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Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
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Posts: 7307
7/13/19 10:12 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Membership is another area that I'm curious about. The Minutes are clear and concise (and on point, IMO) on this topic. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
7/13/19 10:33 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Most Church of God preachers.
Preach progressive Sanctification.
My church operates via our Constitution and by-laws.
To the letter. |
This is a great observation. Teaching sanctification as a one-time event only is unbiblical in my opinion (if is BOTH instantaneous and progressive) but if that's what the Declaration of Faith holds, then credentialed ministers should affirm it. IMO it's great that they realize sanctification is also progressive, but that battle should be fought on the Assembly floor in charity and good faith. The view shouldn't just be quietly abandoned. We should be willing to get into the theological weeds and charitably debate what the Bible says.
The church I belong to operates via its constitution and bylaws to the letter too, and I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world. It is absolutely wonderful knowing, Sunday to Sunday, exactly what to expect and having all things above board. |
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Posts: 13654
7/13/19 10:38 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Initial evidence is another one.
If I moved and found a local COG because the COG matches my understanding of Scripture, I'd be pretty sore if I got plugged in and involved only to find out months down the road that they didn't hold to COG doctrine. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
7/13/19 10:47 pm
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