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 Heaven or Paradise |
Ernie Long |
In recent years there have been people who say they have died and went to Heaven, but couldn't stay. There have been books written and movies made. They say that they felt surrounded by Love and had met many family members. BUT...
I have never heard any of them talk about Heaven or angels as John describes in Revelation 4.
So, did they go to Heaven or did they go to paradise as spoken of in Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
5/11/16 10:43 am
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| No thoughts on this? |
Ernie Long |
Is it possible (I'm sitting in my office at church pondering on this) that instead of going to Heaven when a Christian dies, we go to Paradise instead?
Jesus said that He is preparing a place for us, but He didn't say that we would be living there as soon as we die (or am I missing something here?).
Jesus did tell the one criminal on the cross when he asked Jesus to remember him in Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I'm just looking for other thoughts on this. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
5/12/16 12:38 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I believe the best way to look at this is that believers when they die go to Paradise, which is apparently very much like Heaven, if not identical to it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/12/16 1:09 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
Are my parents in Heaven shouting on the streets of Glory? Are they asleep, waiting on the resurrection? Are their souls with the Lord but their bodies in the graves awaiting the resurrection?
Who knows? None of us. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/12/16 2:58 pm
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| I'm speechless.... |
spartanfan |
y'all got to be kidding? Where is Perry Stone when u need him? Here's the short version from a sermon by Harold Martin that I like:
1. THE IMMEDIATE ABODE OF THE UNSAVED DEAD
Jesus told about the self-centered ungodly rich man (in Luke 16). The ungodly man died, “and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments” (Luke 16:23/KJV). The word translated “hell” is “Hades,” a word which in the New Testament is used to describe the place where the unsaved dead go immediately upon death.
The Greek word for “hell” as a final destiny, is a different word. The word “gehenna” was used to describe the Valley of Hinnom, the garbage dump on the south side of Jerusalem. It was the place where wild dogs gnashed their teeth as they fought over the garbage of the dump. Gehenna is the final place of punishment; Hades is the intermediate place of the dead.
Jesus (in Luke 16) says the souls of the wicked go to “Hades” after death, but in Matthew 10:28 Jesus speaks about hell also. There, He says that both soul and body are cast into “gehenna” after the resurrection and final judgment. In Matthew 10 Jesus is talking about final judgment, but in Luke 16 He is talking about what happens immediately after death.
Hades is like a county jail (a temporary prison), until the sentence is determined. The Lake of Fire (gehenna) is like a state penitentiary, a permanent place of punishment.
While “Hades” is not the final destiny of the wicked, it is a place of conscious suffering and a place of despair and torment. The man in Luke 16 wanted someone to dip the tip of his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24). At another place, the Bible says that “the Lord knows how to … reserve the unjust under punishment for (until) the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9). Hades is a temporary prison where the wicked dead are kept under punishment until the day of judgment and the final sentence is named....
those who do not know God, and who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ “shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).
2. THE IMMEDIATE ABODE OF THOSE WHO DIE IN CHRIST
The Bible teaches that those who are saved, having embraced the blood of Jesus on the cross (11 Peter 1:18-19), will at death go to be with Christ, in a state of conscious bliss–and are immediately in fellowship with Christ.
The Apostle Paul declared that “to be absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8). And later, he says that to die, is “to depart and be with Christ, which is far better’ (Philippians 1:23).
Jesus spoke before His resurrection from the dead of the immediate abode of the dead who will be saved as “Paradise.” He said to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The righteous dead are in the presence of Christ, in a place called Paradise, awaiting the resurrection of the body the judgment, the final reward-and the future lif6 in Heaven.
It might be helpful to explain that before the death and resurrection of Jesus, “Hades” had two regions, one for the righteous and the other for the unrighteous. Not only were the wicked in Hades, but so were the righteous in Old Testament times. In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (in Luke 16), before the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between the two regions. But they were close enough to each other that the self-centered rich man could communicate with the patriarch Abraham.
In the later parts of the New Testament, the abode of the saved is described with the word “paradise.” The Apostle Paul was “caught up into Paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). Our Lord Jesus says that those who overcome shall “eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7).
The Scriptures indicate that Christ descended into Hades before He went back to the Father, at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection and ascension. Acts 2:27 says that His soul was not left in Hades and that His body did not see corruption. Acts 2:32-33 says that Jesus was raised up and exalted at the right hand of the Father. And Ephesians 4:8-10 says that when Christ “ascended on high, He led captivity captive.” It is the belief of many evangelical Bible teachers that it was at this time that those in the righteous portion of Hades were led into the place called Paradise in New Testament times. Jesus descended into Hades, set the Old Testament saints free, and took them to Paradise to be with Him. And now, when saved persons die, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).
There are many questions about life after death that go beyond the limits of our understanding. Now we see through a glass darkly, but a marvelous day is coming when those mysteries will be completely unveiled.
We do know two major facts. Unbelievers will be in a state of anguish and torment (Luke 16:2328; 2 Peter 2:9). The saved will be resting from their labors in joyful satisfaction (Revelation 14:13; Acts 7:59; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). The spirits of those who die in their sins will be ushered immediately in Hades, and after the Judgment, both body and soul will be delivered into the Lake of Fire. The spirits of those who die in Christ will be ushered immediately into the Paradise of God, and upon receiving new bodies, eventually will be transported into the final heavenly home, which Jesus says He is preparing for His people (John 14:1-3). END
So there you have it! That's the general teaching of the majority of Bible Prophecy preachers! |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
5/12/16 3:47 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Luke 16 is a parable and cannot be taken literally. As far as the unsaved dead are concerned, I'll go with John 3:16. It's pretty clear as to what happens to those who do not believe and what happens to those of us who believe. The big question is what happens the second after you die and nobody knows, specifically. Some things cannot be comprehended. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/13/16 5:42 am
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| Enter the Great Debate |
spartanfan |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Luke 16 is a parable and cannot be taken literally. As far as the unsaved dead are concerned, I'll go with John 3:16. It's pretty clear as to what happens to those who do not believe and what happens to those of us who believe. The big question is what happens the second after you die and nobody knows, specifically. Some things cannot be comprehended. |
It is not a parable because literal names are used. Jesus uses the literal names of Abraham, Lazarus, and Moses. Therefore there is no reason for us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, none at all. Jesus NEVER said it was a parable! The Bible announces when Jesus is using a parable to teach such as (1) Matthew 13:24 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field.”
(2) Matthew 13:31 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”
You won't find any mention of a “parable” in Luke 16, or of the word “like.” There is a clear distinction between the parables Jesus told and the literal accounts.
You could just as easily say that Luke 17:26-27 is a parable then when it states, “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.” So you start out with a false statement. Calling it a parable helps people who don't want to believe in a place of actual torment for the wicked after death feel better about the teachings of Jesus concerning Hell. But you have to stretch too far to call a story where Jesus uses actual names a parable - when He nor the Bible writer referred to it as a parable.
As to your statement "The big question is what happens the second after you die and nobody knows...", I would simply go with the Apostle Paul's description - as a Christian your spirit/soul will either be present in your physical body or it will be "with the Lord." There's no limbo - purguatory or in-between state of existence. There are not disembodied spirits of men roaming around the earth or wandering aimlessly in some other dimension. The spirit and soul do not hover over the dead body while a decision is being made as to whether they go with God or to Hades (like some Jews teach).
If you don't know - I suggest you go with the Bible: 2 Cor. 5:8 (KJV), "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
I don't need any more than that - just 2 places for me to be. Here in this body or home with the Lord. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
5/13/16 8:43 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I don't believe it is a parable. The text doesn't say it is a parable. But even if it were, Jesus would have never used a story like that if eternal conscious torment weren't the case. The Rich Man would have either been annihilated in the story, or, if universalism is true, Abraham would not have said there is a great gulf fixed between them that cannot be passed over. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/13/16 9:03 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| If it is literal, we will be able to communicate back and forth from Heaven to hell. The interesting thing about this is that, even though there will be no tears in Heaven, we won't cry for our loved ones in torment. We'll just have to suck it up when we see our children, parents, or whoever down there burning up in hell. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/13/16 9:34 am
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| You didn't read my post evidently....... |
spartanfan |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | If it is literal, we will be able to communicate back and forth from Heaven to hell. The interesting thing about this is that, even though there will be no tears in Heaven, we won't cry for our loved ones in torment. We'll just have to suck it up when we see our children, parents, or whoever down there burning up in hell. |
It will help you to understand how things work if you will read this part:
It might be helpful to explain that before the death and resurrection of Jesus, “Hades” had two regions, one for the righteous and the other for the unrighteous. Not only were the wicked in Hades, but so were the righteous in Old Testament times. In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (in Luke 16), before the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between the two regions. But they were close enough to each other that the self-centered rich man could communicate with the patriarch Abraham.
In the later parts of the New Testament, the abode of the saved is described with the word “paradise.” The Apostle Paul was “caught up into Paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). Our Lord Jesus says that those who overcome shall “eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7).
The Scriptures indicate that Christ descended into Hades before He went back to the Father, at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection and ascension. Acts 2:27 says that His soul was not left in Hades and that His body did not see corruption. Acts 2:32-33 says that Jesus was raised up and exalted at the right hand of the Father. And Ephesians 4:8-10 says that when Christ “ascended on high, He led captivity captive.” It is the belief of many evangelical Bible teachers that it was at this time that those in the righteous portion of Hades were led into the place called Paradise in New Testament times. Jesus descended into Hades, set the Old Testament saints free, and took them to Paradise to be with Him. And now, when saved persons die, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).
The cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ changed everything! |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
5/13/16 10:57 am
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