Actscelerate.com

The fallacy of "Care-taker Pastors"...

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 11:51 am**

In a previous thread about closing churches, I responded that a church of people with no initiative or motivation should have a care-taker pastor and be allowed to die a peaceful death.

I have thought a lot about that in the past 24 hours and find I must apologize. I should have never suggested a care-taker pastor. I should have never suggested a path to a slow death for any church.

I should have suggested a more Biblical approach. They are either luke warm or the Spirit has left. In the former it means they are vomited out of the mouth of God and the latter means they are no longer a church.

I know this will offend many, but it is time we step up and declare that the Kingdom of God is not a spectator sport. The Kingdom of God is about particiaption in the life of a vibrant community of faith. The Kingdom of God is about winning the lost, making disciples, having sign and miracles following us as we press toward the mark.

I, for one, am tired of making excuses for myself and others that are too lazy, too selfish, too over-worked, too tired...(you fill in the blanks)....to seek Holiness, find justice, help the weak, see lives changed in the power of the Holy Spirit.

If we are too "whatever" to be the one working for the Kingdom, we need to step aside and let those that will and can work for the Kingdom move forward We should never be an impediment to the Kingdom.

The illustration church that started this discussion is a classic example of what is happening all over Christendom. I am ok if those 20 people are unable to work as hard as they once were. But they should be seeking ways to support those that can and, actively pursue the will of God in thier church and thier town.

Shame on us (SHAME ON ME) for not demanding only the best and most vigorous actions on behalf of the Kingdom of God. I FOR ONE AM CONVICTED...I must ensure I am not resting, but working.
_________________
Pax,

Ray

The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **10/16/12 12:34 pm**

I would suggest that anyone who calls pastoring a largely elderly, slowly declining congregation being "a caretaker" has never himself done it. Further, anyone who thinks such a congregation doesn't deserve to exist has quite likely never had any real association with such a congregation. Rather than 'prophetic,' it's actually all too easy to say such things. One has to wonder how such a mentality views the elderly in general.

If I've heard one church growth 'expert' argue for the ecclesiastical equivalent of euthanasia for churches they don't see as valuable enough to exist, I must have heard a hundred. None of whom would ever even remotely consider pastoring a small declining congregation in one of the many small and declining communities in our country, which are truly in many ways the least of these my brethren.

Note: This in no way is meant to defend any church that is as toxic and ungodly as the one described by Ernie Long. To me that is a different question altogether.

Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1050 **10/16/12 12:57 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **10/16/12 1:03 pm**

Ernie, that is the impression I got from your description. I couldn't call that truly 'godly.' Sounds like goats more than sheep. (To be fair, I think my church has several goats in it too, though not nearly as many as yours sounds like it does).

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/16/12 1:09 pm**

Ernie, I think you might be surprised to know the picture you have painted of your congregation. I looked up your physical church building on Google maps (since my Aunt Marjorie, Clint's Grandma, goes there). Honestly I had pictured a little building like one might see in south downtown Raleigh with a tiny property, a sign with weeds growing around it, used tires spilling onto the property from the guy next door, chain link fences and barred windows on the neighboring properties. But that's not how it looks. The area is what I would call a nice residential area. Your property is large and not the run down eyesore I had gotten the image. I just wonder if I have gotten the wrong picture of the people as well.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **10/16/12 1:09 pm**

(I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you, brother. I honestly don't mean to. I just would not call a group like you describe true sheep).

Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism.

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **10/16/12 1:41 pm**

Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism.

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 1:48 pm**

Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **10/16/12 1:49 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/16/12 2:00 pm**

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **10/16/12 2:03 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/16/12 2:15 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/16/12 3:03 pm**

Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.

Choose another filter...

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 3:16 pm**

Wait just a minute....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **10/16/12 3:17 pm**

I have pointed this out elsewhere, but feel I must do so again. Just because a church is in decline and contains mostly old folks who cannot do all they used to do, or are easily outdone by those with more energy and youthfulness, does not mean that church is somehow invalidated or useless.

Here's the simple fact: People who have lived for the Lord DESERVE to be able to worship as they wish to worship! This goes for young folks and old folks. So long as it is the "real thing," LET IT ALONE.

Why should Granny Jones have to watch teenagers bouncing around the stage playing music she can't stand, uttering words she can't understand, etc., while the young people are not likewise compelled to listen to Granny's favorites from the Redback, etc.? It's a double standard, and it has to go.

If a family prefers the worship at the New and Improved Church of God, fine! God bless them and keep them. But there are lots of folks--and, yes, most of them are aged--that grew up loving certain songs and styles, enjoy a more fervent style of preaching, etc. Is it not good and right to seek to give them a place that THEY ENJOY? We do that for young people and young couples--why not for the old folks?

Yes, they are going away. This doesn't mean they love Jesus any less fervently. It simply means that their particular style of worship does not attract the numbers (or perhaps any) that a more modern church attracts. So do we tell them they are no longer important to the kingdom when, if our eyes were opened, we might see many, many years of successful sowing and reaping of the harvest, of investing in the kingdom of God, of launching many ministers into the kingdom?

Here's what it comes down to.... The notion that non-growing churches are somehow invalidated and useless is based on the hidden premise that ALL CHURCHES will pretty much last forever...and will grow, grow, grow forever.

We know, however, that churches have lifespans. That wonderful church that meant so much to you in your youth? It might no longer even be around. Or if it is, it might be a church that none of your current members would find the least bit appealing.

Churches do their part...then they slowly fade away...leaving the work to newer churches and younger people. Neighborhoods change. New churches come to the area and take root. People die. People move away. Churches that can offer more and better are now attracting the people that once, many years ago, would have perhaps found their way to that small church.

And so churches slowly fade away. But they don't fade away all at once. The folks who remember the glory days, who still enjoy the worship in their church, still need a place that ministers to them. They don't want to have to change their whole world in order to attend church. They don't want to have to go to a new church where the pastor doesn't know them...when they have a pastor who has known them for 40 years.

So we minister on to them. Do we think that God is unjust to forget their labor of love and cynically say, "What have you done for me lately?" No. He knows that they would love to see the sort of things they saw in the 1950s and 1960s. He also knows that such things have become, like tent meetings, a thing of the past, for the most part.

"Even to old age...I am He."

We must take care that we do not become spiritual Darwinists (though I know that is not at all the intent of my good brothers who see this differently), coldly willing that a church die a quick death, rather than allow it to gently fade into eternity.

One day, 40 years from now, some ministers who are on the cutting edge today, may feel very differently about how older folks should be handled.

Again, we want young people to go to churches that they enjoy. We spend MILLIONS to get them to our church. And yet we begrudge an older church from ministering to those older folks who enjoy that sort of church?

It's one thing to not want souls saved. It's another thing to simply not be able to minister like you did before.

I have a feeling, though, that many of those who are no longer able, have already outdone many of us many times over.

There is no theft when it all belongs to God...

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 3:25 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **10/16/12 3:30 pm**

Re: Wait just a minute....

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 3:35 pm**

Aaron,

This is not about worship styles. This is about passionately pursuing the call of the Gospel by those who claim citenzenship in the Kingdom of God.

There is no problem with providing multiple services to suit differing styles and modes of worship. You could have a Gregorian Chant service. It is about churches that doggedly refuse to be a part of the building of the Kingdom of God.

I am saying something more fundamental than worship styles. I am saying:

If a church is a body of believers, claiming citizenship in the Kindgom of God, they will always strive to fulfill the mandate of the Great Commission/Commandment.
_________________
Pax,

Ray

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **10/16/12 3:36 pm**

If it is simply a question of real estate, if the congregation paid for the property and facilities, why shouldn't they have the right to continue using it as long as they can afford to? Of course we know it isn't just about real estate.

For that matter, if we're going to make it about property, we must concede that there's nothing in Scripture that says a church should own a meeting place to begin with. So the insistence on 'biblical principle' here seems to just beg the question. Of course we do have the biblical principle of good stewardship, but again, if we're just talking about the property side of things, there is no New Testament reference that I know of which says any congregation, whether big or small, should own a meeting house in the first place, much less, anything that would give guidance as to when a local church's property should be sold and the congregation told they can no longer use the sanctuary they paid for.

Please read what I am writing....

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **10/16/12 3:43 pm**