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 When I was examined....... |
sheepdogandy |
for the Ehorters.
An older brother who was doing the oral questioning.
Informed me that he knew that folks always talked about David.
But in his experience in the Church of God he had never seen anyone "come back" from a sexual scandal.
Has anyone ever been restored to successful pastoral ministry in the Church of God after such an episode went public?
No names please!
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7307
2/24/06 1:26 pm
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| Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
He Came To Me |
Though I have not commented on this subject in the MANY previous times OTCP has brought it up, I would accept ANYONE that had fallen morally provided their current situation was honorable and they were living blamelessly at the present. OTCP, thou protestest too loudly about this subject anyway. I know some other guys that proclaimed very loudly about this as well. They made the papers.
TJ, you stated that we are to be blameless. Blameless from when? From birth? From forgiveness? From salvation? I am not sure that I have ever met ANYONE that was blameless from salvation. EVER! I have never met a preacher that 100% met that standard. And if you are not blameless 100% of the time, then what % is acceptable? All of us have made mistakes and sinned that would erase blameless, including you.
Further, Hebrews records the Hall of Faith and it is FULL of men and women who were not blameless after their faith. Noah, Abraham, David, Samson. Even Rahab, who only gets there by lying. That was her act of faith. She lied.
Holiness is important. Standards are necessary. Self righteousness stinks! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
2/24/06 1:32 pm
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| Blameless = Sinless? |
His disciple |
I am blameless. But I am not sinless. I have fallen short. I have failed. I have done wrong. But God, with his grace and mercy, has made me blameless by washing me clean in the blood.
Was Peter blameless using this standard? If you take Paul to mean the person must be without Sin, how did Peter become the head of the early church. Surely you wouldn't say he was blameless. He failed! Jesus restored him and then he was used to change the world.
When it becomes harder to qualify to be used by the COG then it does to be used by God, we have a problem.
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Matthew 7:25 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 249
2/24/06 2:15 pm
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| Re: A Pastor who has failed morally! |
Way Word Worship |
| Dorcas wrote: | | Re: A Pastor who has failed morally! |
I can think of at least one Bishop filled with pure hatred and murdered people in cities where he later established more churches.
Well for that matter, most of us here can be accused of following a heretic and revolutionary.
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Wayword |
Friendly Face
Posts: 247
2/24/06 2:57 pm
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| Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally |
Brenda |
I know a married man with 2 children who pastored, he evangelized. Many souls were saved under his ministry. My own brother for one.
He was a great singer and at one of the church's he pastored he formed a singing group. This group would go with him when holding revivals to help in it. He left pastoring and went evangelizing full time.
Later he hooked up with one of the singers who was married also with one child and they took off together. Devastated both families.
They both ended up getting a divorce and married each other.
They left the church and ended up in another state a thousand miles away. He went into pastoring again an Independent church.. still today as far as I know he's still there. Somewhat 15 years or so ago.
What was his chances at, at pastoring his first organization? Zilch, I'd imagine.
I wonder if he ever openly acknowledged to his new congregation of his past.? Probably not, if so, they probably would of mistrusted him. I mean like... he committed adultery. 
It probably would of been the demise of the church. For we see fleshly. Earthly.
They only seen him as he is. The now.
His still with his second wife they have raised a son together. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2438
2/24/06 6:46 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
TheoloJohn |
| He Came To Me wrote: | | TJ, you stated that we are to be blameless. Blameless from when? From birth? From forgiveness? From salvation? |
Paul plainly was not himself blameless "from birth," and yet did claim that he walked "holy and blameless" as an example before the Thessalonian believers:
1Th 2:10 You and God are witnesses how holily and justly and blamelessly we were to you who believe,
1Th 2:11 even as you know how we exhorted and comforted and testified to each one of you, as a father to his children,
1Th 2:12 that you should walk worthy of God, who has called you to His kingdom and glory. MKJV
| Quote: | | I am not sure that I have ever met ANYONE that was blameless from salvation. EVER! |
Okay, fine. That may well be your experience. However, experience does not overrule scripture.
| Quote: | | I have never met a preacher that 100% met that standard. And if you are not blameless 100% of the time, then what % is acceptable? All of us have made mistakes and sinned that would erase blameless, including you. |
First off, not all mistakes are sinful. Some are simply due to the fact that we lack omniscience. But having an adulterous affair is definitely not "just a mistake," especially when involving a supposed man of God who has absolutely NO excuse and really does know better.
Second, is the Holy Spirit too weak to make us holy and keep us that way, if we only yield to him? Or is it your contention that there are temptations that may come our way from which God does not provide a way of escape? My Bible and yours makes it as plain as day that with any temptation, God makes a way of escape, so that we can bear it, and that NO temptation can afflict us but such as is common to man.
| Quote: |
Further, Hebrews records the Hall of Faith and it is FULL of men and women who were not blameless after their faith. Noah, Abraham, David, Samson. Even Rahab, who only gets there by lying. That was her act of faith. She lied. |
Which of those qualified as NT bishops?
| Quote: | | Holiness is important. Standards are necessary. Self righteousness stinks! |
I agree with all that, especially your last statement. And the absolutely most foul kind of self-righteousness is the "don't judge me" kind, that instantly assumes that because a person is holding up the Bible standard of holiness, he is necessarily "self-righteous."
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 2/24/06 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/24/06 7:59 pm
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| Re: A Pastor who has failed morally! |
TheoloJohn |
| Way Word Worship wrote: |
I can think of at least one Bishop filled with pure hatred and murdered people in cities where he later established more churches. |
Paul did not live that way after his conversion. No one is saying that a man's pre-conversion lifestyle should be held against him. How ridiculous. As if Paul continued his persecutorial, murderous ways after Christ got ahold of his heart.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/24/06 8:02 pm
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| Re: Blameless = Sinless? |
TheoloJohn |
| His disciple wrote: | | When it becomes harder to qualify to be used by the COG then it does to be used by God, we have a problem. |
I'm not arguing for or against the way of the CoG does "restoration." I am simply and only referring to the clear biblical standard laid down by Paul for bishops, that they must be "above reproach" (blameless). And yes, this means bishops must NOT have willful, known sin in their lives currently, and that they must have at least lived a godly life long enough to be considered by even outsiders as a respectable example of godly living. Paul said it, I didn't. Your argument is with the apostolic standard, not with me. Either Paul was right in laying down this standard or he wasn't.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! (Rom. 6:1, for those who may have forgotten it).
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/24/06 8:04 pm
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| Re: A Pastor who has failed morally! |
Way Word Worship |
| TheoloJohn wrote: | | Way Word Worship wrote: |
I can think of at least one Bishop filled with pure hatred and murdered people in cities where he later established more churches. |
Paul did not live that way after his conversion. No one is saying that a man's pre-conversion lifestyle should be held against him. How ridiculous. As if Paul continued his persecutorial, murderous ways after Christ got ahold of his heart.
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I suppose your right John. There just isn't much hope for some people. There is just some things grace can fix while there are other it can't touch. Somehow the old song "the Blood will never loose its Power" gets new meaning today. Kinda like believing in a half-risen savior. 
I know where we stand in this discussion having gone down that road with you before. It is sad that you represent a larger view still held in the COG. But then again you're in the majority and one can be glad of that.
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Wayword |
Friendly Face
Posts: 247
2/25/06 11:52 am
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| Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally |
TheoloJohn |
Just so everyone is clear on this, WWW's comments are what is known of as "bait and switch." The issue is "What are the qualifications for bishops according to the New Testament." The issue is not, as WWW wants you to think, whether or not such egregious sins by those in leadership who are supposed to be mature Christians can be forgiven.
WWW makes it into a salvation issue, and accuses me of denying the power of the blood and grace of God to restore a man to salvation, which is definitely NOT my position. I believe there is forgiveness available to all who repent and forsake their sins, calling on the name of the Lord for mercy. That is a separate issue from whether or not a man is qualified to be a shepherd/bishop in God's church.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/25/06 2:15 pm
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| Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally |
notwanghere |
I totally agree Theo!
In my opinion, the standards for a Bishop are very plainly Biblically stated yet somehow the ability of the blood of Christ to purify is constantly interjected.
The blood of Christ saves, but the scars of sin remain. The effects of sin last until death. The child born out of immorality does not suddenly vanish when the sinner repents. Nor do the qualifications for Bishop suddenly change. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/25/06 3:03 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
He Came To Me |
TJ, you asked a question that implies a belief. You asked was the Holy Spirit not strong enough to help a person walk holy without falling into temptation. Yes He is!!! He is strong enough to keep you from ANY sin. He is strong enough to keep you from ANY mistake. Yes HE is but many times we are not. Are you saying that a person that commits adultery cannot be as holy as one who does not? That is your implication.
I do not limit the power of God, His grace or His Spirit. If you believe ALL things are possible with God (same Bible by the way) then you must believe that God is able to forgive and restore what has been lost. The ONLY thing that makes you righteous and blameless also covers the fallen minister. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
2/25/06 3:09 pm
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| Scars do not prohibit ministry.. |
He Came To Me |
| Yes the cost is high. Yes there are scars from such an event. Yes there is a price to pay. Their ministry may be different, but they can still obtain the level of "blameless" which is a current state and not a past one. NONE are blameless if the past is considered. I can agree there is a lot of proving necessary when someone falls. I can also show you many changed lives from fallen men and women who could relate while some of us sit in our white chairs wearing our white robes and cannot relate to those who are in trouble. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
2/25/06 3:14 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
TheoloJohn |
| He Came To Me wrote: | | Are you saying that a person that commits adultery cannot be as holy as one who does not? |
Well, I certainly don't believe a person's present state of living in sin necessarily means he or she can't become holy by repentance, faith and cleansing by the blood of Christ.
But again, this is beside the point of whether or not a man can ever again be qualified as a bishop, who is supposed to be a mature man of faith and holiness ("not a novice" in Christian living) who then knowing full well the standards of holy living God and his congregation rightly expect of him, willfully violates those standards.
The blood of Jesus was never intended as a blanket excuse for continuing in sin:
Heb. 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
When a bishop in God's church willfully commits adultery, he is trampling underfoot the blood of Christ, and has insulted the Spirit of grace. Who would consider such a man worthy of the calling of bishop?
My, my, my I feel a PREACH comin' on!
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 2/25/06 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/25/06 3:17 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| He Came To Me wrote: | | OTCP, thou protestest too loudly about this subject anyway. I know some other guys that proclaimed very loudly about this as well. They made the papers. |
A question was posed in the original post a this thread. A sincere an legitimate question. The original post was not pro or con on the issue, only a question was posed.
Now, why must you present a ad hominem attack on the old timer, comparin him to some who railed agin certain sins only to be found guilty a doin it themselves an makin the headlines? Shame on ya, son.......... |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/25/06 3:22 pm
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| Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally |
notwanghere |
Again there is a switch taking place. We are not talking about ministry pewr se, but pastoring.
I can not debate the etymology of the word "blameless" I have not fully researched the word. However the word seems "aorist" to me. Blamelessness is not one's standing before the Lord, but of reputaion. While ones standing before the Lord may be blameless, ones standing before society may not be. I believe that is the issue.
I will gladly submit to those who are able to give me a more exegetical explanation of the admonition. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/25/06 3:23 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| TheoloJohn wrote: | | My, my, my I feel a PREACH comin' on! |
Then whatever ya do, TJ, dont resist it son....
PREACH IT............ |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/25/06 3:23 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
notwanghere |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | He Came To Me wrote: | | OTCP, thou protestest too loudly about this subject anyway. I know some other guys that proclaimed very loudly about this as well. They made the papers. |
A question was posed in the original post a this thread. A sincere an legitimate question. The original post was not pro or con on the issue, only a question was posed.
Now, why must you present a ad hominem attack on the old timer, comparin him to some who railed agin certain sins only to be found guilty a doin it themselves an makin the headlines? Shame on ya, son.......... |
I am in full agreement with you OTCP. Why does it seem so difficult to present ones own position without denegrating into personal attacks. I have to confess I have found myself guilty, but why is it so?
I guess we have to keep in our minds constantly this thing is not about us. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/25/06 3:32 pm
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| Re: Theolojohn and OTCP...the answer is yes |
notwanghere |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | TheoloJohn wrote: | | My, my, my I feel a PREACH comin' on! |
Then whatever ya do, TJ, dont resist it son....
PREACH IT............ |
Oooooh ...I want one just like it! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/25/06 3:33 pm
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| TJ I assume you never sin... |
He Came To Me |
based on your post. You quote a scripture that you are applying literally. Only a few things can be true for you then. Either:
1. You have NEVER sinned since you were saved, or
2. The only sin you ever committed after salvation you did not know it was a sin, which is not likely, or
3. You only think this verse applies to certain sins.
The thing that really bothers me when men make this argument is they overlook their own sin. How many ignorant sins can you commit? Knowingly committing a sin does not distinguish the sin. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
2/25/06 7:10 pm
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