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 Define sin... |
Frere Jacques |
Sorry for hijacking the thread (or rather contributing to the hijacking of this thread), but I had to respond to the following:
| prefontaine wrote: | | I sin, you sin, we all sin...does that mean we aren't sanctified? |
Before we can define holiness/sanctification, we must first define sin, for the Bible plainly teaches that he that sins is of the Devil, while he who abides in Christ does not "continue in sin, that grace may abound."
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Last edited by Frere Jacques on 3/29/07 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 216
3/29/07 10:36 pm
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| Re: I guess no body knows! |
KevinLloyd |
| Rayford J. Bethune wrote: | I ask for someone to name 100 ministers that have left the COG the last 10 years and there has been no response. Is this because there have not been 100 left to go into another more up-to-date movement?
So if anyone can name only a few names( again, do not count anyone that left because of feeling the COG was too liberal, or those that had their credentials revoked) it kind of makes this entire argument a waste of time. Or I could be blunt and say all that agree that it is true is believing a lie.
Some of you would not have anything to say if you were not trying to figure out a way to down the COG.
Many of you say that you believe the Word, and your just wanting to show Christ in your life. The denomination is not doing any good. Your tired of a show you want what is real. Well, one thing that is real is that we should be under subjection to those that are over us in the lord and in society.
How can you justify rebellion against authority? Oh, I know, you don't agree with you leadership because your right and God is leading you in a new place of serving Him.
I guess God has been waiting for a time such as this for a new group of people to come along so He could finally get society and the church ready for the rapture.
Of all the COGs in America, and all of the new ministers, and all of the people that attend every week, I am sorry it is not enough to say the COG is doing good. I could give you some other things that are going on in America but you have already made up your mind, so it doesn't matter.
I guess the attack that the COG is under on this board should encourage every COG pastor,evangelist, teacher, singer, lay person, and every one else that attends our churches. Someone else is getting a break and the COG is faithful enough to with take the abuse and survive.
Thanks and God Bless!
Rayford J. Bethune
Senior Pastor, The Refuge
Fort Payne, Alabama |
um. ok. i can't think of alot of people who have left. i know alot of people who are frustrated. but then again...i don't know alot of people out there period. the one person that i know who left is me. i'm by no means the best or the brightest. in fact, time may prove me to be the worst & dullest. but i am different. any time i went to any type of CG meeting i felt totally out of place and like i didn't belong. no one made me feel that way...i just felt like i was on a different wavelength somehow. not better...just very out of my element. i was frustrated with the denom and didn't feel like i could plant a church through them the way that i wanted. i've spent my whole career & saved life in the CG. don't know if that gives any validity to anything...but it's my only response to what you're asking.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd
Last edited by KevinLloyd on 3/29/07 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 10:39 pm
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| Thanks Pastor Kevin! |
Rayford J. Bethune |
At least your being honest. I think you are important to whatever church you decide to be part of. My point is that it doesn't make much sense to say the COG is losing it's youngest and brightest over some leaving considering how many are credentialed every year.
I wish you would remain in the COG, but you must do what you think is right. The COG has not tried to dictate anything that I have done in our church plant. They have graciously helped us financially and with words of encouragement. But they have not once told me how things must be done. My church is different, but I am proud to be in the COG.
Maybe someday our paths will cross in life and not just on this board. I said once that me and you probably had a lot of the same ideas. Anyway thanks and God Bless!!!!!
Rayford J. Bethune |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 52
3/29/07 11:21 pm
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| Re: Thanks Pastor Kevin! |
KevinLloyd |
| Rayford J. Bethune wrote: | At least your being honest. I think you are important to whatever church you decide to be part of. My point is that it doesn't make much sense to say the COG is losing it's youngest and brightest over some leaving considering how many are credentialed every year.
I wish you would remain in the COG, but you must do what you think is right. The COG has not tried to dictate anything that I have done in our church plant. They have graciously helped us financially and with words of encouragement. But they have not once told me how things must be done. My church is different, but I am proud to be in the COG.
Maybe someday our paths will cross in life and not just on this board. I said once that me and you probably had a lot of the same ideas. Anyway thanks and God Bless!!!!!
Rayford J. Bethune |
maybe so. i cruise through ft payne every time i go back home. i turn up the Alabama music really loud every time.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 11:27 pm
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| Re: I guess no body knows! |
vintagefaith77 |
| Rayford J. Bethune wrote: | | How can you justify rebellion against authority? Oh, I know, you don't agree with you leadership because your right and God is leading you in a new place of serving Him. |
If you question the status quo and wonder why things are done the way they're done, is that "rebelling against authority"?? I didn't know that when I accepted my credentials that I was required to leave my brain and my free will at the door. It's attitudes like this one that turn me off...I tell my youth all the time that the best way to learn is to QUESTION, QUESTION, QUESTION! If we are afraid to ask the hard questions, then we will settle for the easy way out every time. So, Bro. Bethune, I respect your opinion, but I don't think asking questions is equal to rebellion and I'm sorry if you do. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
3/30/07 1:40 am
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| Re: I guess no body knows! |
Telecaster |
| vintagefaith77 wrote: | | Rayford J. Bethune wrote: | | How can you justify rebellion against authority? Oh, I know, you don't agree with you leadership because your right and God is leading you in a new place of serving Him. |
If you question the status quo and wonder why things are done the way they're done, is that "rebelling against authority"?? I didn't know that when I accepted my credentials that I was required to leave my brain and my free will at the door. It's attitudes like this one that turn me off...I tell my youth all the time that the best way to learn is to QUESTION, QUESTION, QUESTION! If we are afraid to ask the hard questions, then we will settle for the easy way out every time. So, Bro. Bethune, I respect your opinion, but I don't think asking questions is equal to rebellion and I'm sorry if you do. |
I think the point he's trying to make is, it's not wrong to question. It's wrong to take off and leave when you don't get the answers you want to the questions you ask . . . . |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 9:08 am
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| Frere... |
prefontaine |
So, you are either saying that 1) you don't ever sin after giving your heart to Christ or 2) that every time we sin we are backsliding. Either way, I think you are a little off base. There is certainly a difference in sinning and continually sinning. Think about the sins of omission that we commit. Not witnessing when given a chance, not praying continually, feelings of resentment about people we disagree with, bitterness, gossip, and other. When Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan." Did He actually mean Peter was Satan or that Peter was allowing Satan to influence him, and either way, if Peter had died right then, what would have happened to his soul?
Paul said, I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
It sure sounds to me like Paul sinned.
As far as Rick Warrens "PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD" is concerned. I don't understand what makes that book PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD. I have heard so much bashing of that book from people of all levels of spiritual maturity, and I gotta be honest, I don't get it. It is a book full of truths that are easy to understand for babies, but it also contains some instructions that even the most seasoned Christian can get something out of. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/30/07 9:56 am
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| Re: Frere... |
Frere Jacques |
| prefontaine wrote: | | So, you are either saying that 1) you don't ever sin after giving your heart to Christ or 2) that every time we sin we are backsliding. |
It should go without saying that we certainly shouldn't ever sin after giving our heart to Christ, and that we must repent of each and every sin we may commit, or else our hearts are truly not where they ought to be--in love with Christ, submitted to His Spirit's leading.
| Quote: | | Either way, I think you are a little off base. |
Actually, your problem is with 1 John 3:4-9, not with me. Are you saying the Apostle John is "a little off base?"
| Quote: | | There is certainly a difference in sinning and continually sinning. |
I'll agree a singular instance of sin is different from continually sinning. That's pretty much self-evident. 1 John 2:1 says if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, while 1 John 3:4-9 says that anyone who keeps on sinning is of the Devil.
| Quote: | | Think about the sins of omission that we commit. Not witnessing when given a chance, not praying continually, feelings of resentment about people we disagree with, bitterness, gossip, and other. |
Paul said "In your anger do not sin," and Jesus himself was angry when appropriate, so it cannot be that feelings per se are sinful.
Also, did Jesus witness every chance He got? Or pray continually? (I mean bowed on his knees consciously doing nothing other than praying 100% of the time).
| Quote: | | When Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan." Did He actually mean Peter was Satan or that Peter was allowing Satan to influence him, and either way, if Peter had died right then, what would have happened to his soul? |
Questions such as this generally betray a rather self-seeking motive. They also plainly imply that sin doesn't really deserve God's condemnation. As if Peter (or anyone else) wouldn't have deserved Hell for denying Christ.
| Quote: | Paul said, I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
It sure sounds to me like Paul sinned. |
In Romans 7:14-25, never once is the Holy Spirit or Christ mentioned. Paul is here relating how one responds to the Law, without the help of the Holy Spirit and without Christ dwelling within, or else Romans 6 and 8 are flatly contradicted. The same Paul who wrote Romans 7 also wrote Galatians 5:16, which says plainly that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
John said, "He that sinneth is of the Devil."
He that abides in Christ does not sin, for the Spirit of Christ within him keeps him from sinning, so long as the one abiding in Christ continues to abide in Him.
FJ |
Friendly Face
Posts: 216
3/30/07 11:06 am
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| First of all... |
prefontaine |
| Yes, I believe that Jesus did witness whenever He got the chance. That's not to say we need to tell everyone we ever see about Christ, but there are certainly open doors that don't get walked through. I also believe that Jesus did pray continually-FYI, you don't have to be on your knees or have your eyes closed to talk to God-which is prayer. I believe that scripture talks more about constantly aligning yourself with God. If you do that 100% of the time, then you got me. I also do believe that we have to repent of every sin we commit, but I also believe in grace and mercy, and that God knows our hearts. If I mess up, and in the next instant get in a car wreck and die, what happens? I believe that God knows our hearts in that. That He knows how we would respond if we had the chance. That is definitely different than living a lifestyle of sin, which I said that I disagree with. My thing is that you said we have got to be perfect for the rest of our lives in order to not be "of the Devil". |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/30/07 1:25 pm
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| Re: Vintage... |
gadawg |
| KariJay wrote: | Well, I'm sorry to say but I agreed with the vast majority of his post. And maybe it's because what I've seen of the emergent movement has made me believe that. It's not because I'm being judgemental...it's just how I perceive what's going on.
Oh, I definitely believe you can be moving forward without compromising holiness. I really do. But from what I've seen, that hasn't happened. The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin.
To me, the traditional foundation has always brought me back to holiness as the standard for living my life and I constantly want to be pushed to be more and more holy. If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord. |
Amen, amen, amen x 1,000,000!!! That has been my experience with the emergent movement. It's all about what makes you feel good and what it takes to get the unchurched, but not about conviction. You have to talk about sin and its consequences. That's just the Bible! |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 647
3/30/07 1:44 pm
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| Let's talk about feel good... |
prefontaine |
| Isn't that what hyper-traditionalists want too? They want to do what they like, and if that isn't what you want, then go somewhere else. That sounds exactly like a "whatever makes ME feel good" mentality. There have been a few posts on this thread and others that say if you don't like it, get out. Wanting what feels good can be said about the churches that have an abundance of tongues out loud without any interpretation just as much as it can for a church that doesn't focus on tongues at all. It can apply to wanting a lot of the prophetic, having to see miracles, and having to have a lot of the supernatural in order to really have service. As long as we are talking about feeling, I'm sure most of the post-modern ministers on this board would agree that the greatest feeling in the world is leading someone to Christ and being saturated in His presence. Those are great feelings, wouldn't you say? I am so tired of hearing that if you are seeker sensitive, you are only doing what feels good. Guess what, God gave us emotions, He created us to feel. Granted, conviction is a part of being a Christian. None of us enjoy being convicted, but we should all long for it, because it brings us closer to God. However, I have a much harder time accepting conviction from a pastor than I do from the Holy Spirit and from reading it in the Bible myself. We can teach, preach, exhort, and admonish all with love. However, if we don't build a relationship with the people first, they won't know that we love them. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/30/07 1:55 pm
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| Re: Vintage... |
KevinLloyd |
| gadawg wrote: | | KariJay wrote: | Well, I'm sorry to say but I agreed with the vast majority of his post. And maybe it's because what I've seen of the emergent movement has made me believe that. It's not because I'm being judgemental...it's just how I perceive what's going on.
Oh, I definitely believe you can be moving forward without compromising holiness. I really do. But from what I've seen, that hasn't happened. The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin.
To me, the traditional foundation has always brought me back to holiness as the standard for living my life and I constantly want to be pushed to be more and more holy. If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord. |
Amen, amen, amen x 1,000,000!!! That has been my experience with the emergent movement. It's all about what makes you feel good and what it takes to get the unchurched, but not about conviction. You have to talk about sin and its consequences. That's just the Bible! |
i totally disagree w/ 2 things out of this:
1. i don't know what your experience is...and i don't discount it being a bad one. but in my experience, i've never encountered anything like you speak of. the churches that i've been in are great and truthful. willow, northpoint, newspring, stevens creek, lifechurch.tv, mosaic, fellowship. they don't water anything down...but they do repackage it.
2. you guys said "The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin" and "If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord". well, it's not the churches job to convict you or make you feel bad about your sin...it's God's job. it's the churches job to be honest about what the bible says & create environments/moments that are conducive for God to move in your life. but it's up to God to convict. when churches try to do this...it comes across as legalistic and bashing.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/30/07 2:05 pm
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| Re: Let's talk about feel good... |
Telecaster |
| prefontaine wrote: | | Isn't that what hyper-traditionalists want too? They want to do what they like, and if that isn't what you want, then go somewhere else. That sounds exactly like a "whatever makes ME feel good" mentality. |
Hyper traditionalists? That's the definition of emergent if you ask vintage and others. Their definition of emergent pastors are those who care for the past but must push forward to win the lost and do more and so forth and so on. Really, your bias here is so blinding to yourself, that you can't see anything else. The same statement could be made about individuals who can't have the church they want or the position they want or the outreach the same way they want, so they leave and start themselves another church. Get real man.
| prefontaine wrote: | | Wanting what feels good can be said about the churches that have an abundance of tongues out loud without any interpretation just as much as it can for a church that doesn't focus on tongues at all. It can apply to wanting a lot of the prophetic, having to see miracles, and having to have a lot of the supernatural in order to really have service. |
I couldn't agree more. But just as some of these traditionalist churches err on that side, many emergent churches err on the complete opposite and seek to win people and transform people without a clear move of God. It's about strategies and principles and tactics and relationships. While all of those help, we can't take the Holy Spirit out of the equation. I would be willing to say that as many traditional churches are off centered in the way you describe, there are as many emergent churches off centered in the way I described.
| prefontaine wrote: | | As long as we are talking about feeling, I'm sure most of the post-modern ministers on this board would agree that the greatest feeling in the world is leading someone to Christ and being saturated in His presence. Those are great feelings, wouldn't you say? |
Absolutely correct again. And even greater feeling is not just winning them, but discipling them and watching as the Holy Spirit begins manifesting Himself in them and transforming them. That's an even greater feeling. I list my salvations from the month in my monthly report every time I send it in. However, I don't count them as a success or a good feeling if I hadn't seen them since, or if they are still living like they were before salvation.
| prefontaine wrote: | | I am so tired of hearing that if you are seeker sensitive, you are only doing what feels good. |
That is the definition of the move you know. Seeker sensitive implies doing what makes seekers feel good and making sure to not do the things that might turn them away from the church.
| prefontaine wrote: | | Guess what, God gave us emotions, He created us to feel. |
Absolutely, but we're not to serve God for feelings or with feelings. We're to live by faith which transcends feelings. The presence of God is more than a feeling. We are too feel and we are to have emotions towards people and things, but those emotions direct our experience with God then our relationship with God is no longer Biblcal.
| prefontaine wrote: | | Granted, conviction is a part of being a Christian. None of us enjoy being convicted, but we should all long for it, because it brings us closer to God. However, I have a much harder time accepting conviction from a pastor than I do from the Holy Spirit and from reading it in the Bible myself. |
Maybe it's a problem with authority then. Pastors supposedly preach what God has given them, not what they want to say. And while that doesn't always happen, you can't escape it regardless of where you go to church. I don't see where that argument has a bearing on anything you're pointing out. As long as there are humans preaching the Word, there will be fallacies in the preaching. The attitude of "I can do it myself" is the very spirit of anti-christ as John writes. It's the spirit of rebellion and seeks to exalt itself above everything else. When you think you can have church better by yourself than with believers, be careful, because you're out of the will of God. Unless the preacher is in moral failure, God's anointed is still God's anointed.
| prefontaine wrote: | | We can teach, preach, exhort, and admonish all with love. However, if we don't build a relationship with the people first, they won't know that we love them. |
Last I checked the most important thing was making sure people knew Jesus loved them, not us. I understand the relationship principle, but if that's the only principle we worked at, can you imagine how many years it would take to win the world. Exactly how long do you have to be friends before you talk about Christ? The questions could continue. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 2:11 pm
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| Re: Vintage... |
Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | 2. you guys said "The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin" and "If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord". well, it's not the churches job to convict you or make you feel bad about your sin...it's God's job. it's the churches job to be honest about what the bible says & create environments/moments that are conducive for God to move in your life. but it's up to God to convict. when churches try to do this...it comes across as legalistic and bashing. |
I don't understand your post. So we're to create an environment for God to convict, but the church isn't to convict? Wouldn't the plans put in motion by the church for the purpose of creating an environment where God could convict actually put the church in the role of doing the convicting? Besides, when's the last time God audibly spoke from Heaven and convicted you? It comes through the Word as you say. So I don't understand what you're trying to explain. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 2:14 pm
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| It is Jesus... |
prefontaine |
The most important thing is making sure Jesus loves them, not us. However, if we can't show them love, how will they know that? We can tell people that Jesus loves them, but what is there to make them believe it if we can't show love also? As far as doing what feels good...you're right, it can be said about any group-that's part of what makes them a group, common interests and likes. Seeker sensitive is not necessarily doing or saying things that make the church look like something it isn't just to attract people. Seeker sensitive is being sensitive to the needs of seekers. A seeker needs love, compassion, and relationships (with God and His followers). The relationship with God is exactly what they are seeking, whether they know it or not, so I would say a seeker sensitive church is trying to help a seeker find what they are looking for.
The conviction part does need to be God...at some point or another, God has to be the one doing the work. I can point out sins in peoples' lives, but why should they change because I say so? I had a pastor read Proverbs 20:1 one time, and he said, "Wine is a mocker, beer is a brawler, anyone who partakes of it is a fool." He didn't like drinking, and it was a conviction of his, but that isn't what that verse says. So, I guess I should have just taken His word for that and everything else, because He was only saying what God gave him to say. If we are putting that much dependence on our preachers to tell us what is wrong, then we might as well all be Catholic. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/30/07 3:20 pm
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| Re: It is Jesus... |
Telecaster |
| prefontaine wrote: | | I had a pastor read Proverbs 20:1 one time, and he said, "Wine is a mocker, beer is a brawler, anyone who partakes of it is a fool." He didn't like drinking, and it was a conviction of his, but that isn't what that verse says. So, I guess I should have just taken His word for that and everything else, because He was only saying what God gave him to say. If we are putting that much dependence on our preachers to tell us what is wrong, then we might as well all be Catholic. |
You obviously disregarded what I said. I said I know that people are fallable and will make mistakes, but it happens as much in traditional churches as it does in emergent ones. As long as humans are preaching the gospel, there's will always be some flesh involved.
You're point is redundant. We've already crossed that bridge. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 4:06 pm
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| Redundancy... |
prefontaine |
| Yes, my point is redundant, but you are kind of contradicting yourself...unless I am misunderstanding. You are saying that it is the pastors job to tell us what sin is, but that you can't really trust everything a pastor says because it might be wrong-they are only human. I am simply saying the latter. Yes, pastors have a very important job of interpreting scripture for us, explaining things we don't understand, and shepherding us. I fully believe in the pastor's responsibility to preach the full word...that is why I attend a full-gospel church. However, the true conviction needs to come from God, and reading His word. Going home after church and reading the verses and context that the sermon was preached from can be far more maturing than listening to even the best pastors. It is not a pastors job to convict, just to teach. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/30/07 4:12 pm
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| Re: Redundancy... |
Telecaster |
| prefontaine wrote: | | Yes, my point is redundant, but you are kind of contradicting yourself...unless I am misunderstanding. You are saying that it is the pastors job to tell us what sin is, but that you can't really trust everything a pastor says because it might be wrong-they are only human. I am simply saying the latter. Yes, pastors have a very important job of interpreting scripture for us, explaining things we don't understand, and shepherding us. I fully believe in the pastor's responsibility to preach the full word...that is why I attend a full-gospel church. However, the true conviction needs to come from God, and reading His word. Going home after church and reading the verses and context that the sermon was preached from can be far more maturing than listening to even the best pastors. It is not a pastors job to convict, just to teach. |
I'll agree with what you're saying. We are to believe what our pastor preaches, but reading his text for yourself afterwards doesn't mean you don't trust him. It just means you'd like to completely understand it. That's my point.
I wouldn't bother listening to any man preach if i didn't believe he had the ability to hear from God. At the same time, I know I'm human as he is, and anytime I'm speaking sometimes I may say things that God really didn't inspire. It was more or less me meddling. I myself challenge those under me to read the Word for themselves. Don't just take my word for it. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 5:13 pm
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| Wrong question! |
spartanfan |
We certainly aren't losing our brightest - and as for our best, I doubt that too. In fact, in my neck of the woods we're not losing anyone so the question is off base. Our brightest are mostly young great leaders and pastors who continue to serve faithfully by example and instruction. Guys like my overseer (not to be named). Our executive committee is the best (along with council of 1 and we haven't lost any of them in years. So the question is ludicrous. In fact, the ones we've lost in my opinion are quys suffering from an identity crisis - am I emergent, seeker sensitive, purpose driven or what? (they can't figure out how to apply a "style" of ministry without breaking fellowship with a solid church with a great heritage of holiness and Spirituality). I wish we could keep them all, but in my opinion we are not losing either our best or certainly not our brightest. Just my opinion. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
3/30/07 6:39 pm
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| Re: Vintage... |
Layperson |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | gadawg wrote: | | KariJay wrote: | Well, I'm sorry to say but I agreed with the vast majority of his post. And maybe it's because what I've seen of the emergent movement has made me believe that. It's not because I'm being judgemental...it's just how I perceive what's going on.
Oh, I definitely believe you can be moving forward without compromising holiness. I really do. But from what I've seen, that hasn't happened. The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin.
To me, the traditional foundation has always brought me back to holiness as the standard for living my life and I constantly want to be pushed to be more and more holy. If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord. |
Amen, amen, amen x 1,000,000!!! That has been my experience with the emergent movement. It's all about what makes you feel good and what it takes to get the unchurched, but not about conviction. You have to talk about sin and its consequences. That's just the Bible! |
i totally disagree w/ 2 things out of this:
1. i don't know what your experience is...and i don't discount it being a bad one. but in my experience, i've never encountered anything like you speak of. the churches that i've been in are great and truthful. willow, northpoint, newspring, stevens creek, lifechurch.tv, mosaic, fellowship. they don't water anything down...but they do repackage it.
2. you guys said "The vast majority of emergent stuff is a feeling tickler...it doesn't make you feel that bad about your sin" and "If I go to a church that doesn't give me strong conviction about things I'm doing wrong, there is a problem there and I'm no longer growing in the Lord". well, it's not the churches job to convict you or make you feel bad about your sin...it's God's job. it's the churches job to be honest about what the bible says & create environments/moments that are conducive for God to move in your life. but it's up to God to convict. when churches try to do this...it comes across as legalistic and bashing. |
I don't think KariJay was talking about rules (or as you say legalism), but about being in a church where the Spirit of God is manifest in such a powerful and wonderful way that people with sin in their life are convicted and repent. I have been in services where he Spirit was so strong that I just felt like falling on my face before His mighty presence. I don't know if you have these kind of services or not, but if not you are missing a wonderful experience. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/30/07 8:10 pm
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