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 Only mature, strong Christians should drink alcohol |
Curtis Lowe II |
OK. I'm going to stir things up a bit.
Perhaps the only people who should drink alcohol are mature strong Christians. It would seem to me those are the ones who have the wisdom and discipline have a drink, relax watch some football and them go to be with their own spouse.
While I am stirring...why do we always try to justify it as medicinal, why can't we just say it is relaxing and pleasurable. Is that sinful? Is it wrong to simply enjoy the relaxing feeling that some get from a glass of wine if we do not commit any sins?
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 902
1/12/12 4:44 pm
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theElder |
| Wouldn't 'mature, strong Christians' give a lot of consideration to how their actions might adversely impact immature, weaker Christians and refrain from drinking alcohol? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
1/12/12 5:01 pm
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philunderwood |
Martin Luther, in a letter to his wife:
| Quote: | To my kind, dear lord, Lady Catherine von Bora, Mrs. Doctor Luther, at Wittenberg
Grace and peace in Christ! Dear Sir Katie! I know of nothing to write to you since Master Philip, together with the others, is coming home. I have to remain here longer for the devout Sovereign’s sake. You might wonder how long I shall remain here, or how you might set me free. I think that Master Francis will set me free, just as I freed him—but not so soon.
Yesterday I drank something which did not agree with me, so that I had to sing: If I don’t drink well I have to suffer, and [yet] I do like to do it. I said to myself what good wine and beer I have at home, and also [what] a pretty lady or (should I say) lord. You would do well to ship the whole cellar full of my wine and a bottle of your beer to me here, as soon as you are able; otherwise I will not be able to return home because of the new beer.
With this I commend you to God, together with our young ones and all the members of our household. Amen.
July 29, 1534
The Man whom you Love
Martin Luther, Doctor |
and, in a sermon...
| Quote: | | God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer: he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control. Even though we do not have a command of God, we should nevertheless be ashamed that we are thus spit upon by other peoples. If you want to be a Christian, do not argue in this way: Nobody reproaches me, therefore God does not reproach me. So it has been from the time of Noah. And so it was with the Sodomites, who wanted to rape the angels; they were all so drunk they could not find the door. Sodom and Gomorrah perished because of a flood of drunkenness; this vice was punished. God does not tolerate such confusion and inordinate use of his creatures [i.e., food and drink]. |
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Posts: 3954
1/12/12 5:15 pm
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
Poimen |
| Curtis Lowe II wrote: | Perhaps the only people who should drink alcohol are mature strong christians. It would seem to me those are the ones who have the wisdom and discipline have a drink, relax watch some football and them go to be with their own spouse.
While I am stirring...why do we always try to justify it as medicinal, why can't we just say it is relaxing and pleasurable. Is that sinful? Is it wrong to simply enjoy the relaxing feeling that some get from a glass of wine if we do not commit any sins? |
Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? Perhaps that is the starting point of being drunk, impaired by the alcohol (even if the impairment seems positive)? Worth considering at least, since we know no drunkard can inherit the Kingdom of God.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/12/12 5:21 pm
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
Clint Wills |
| Poimen wrote: | | Curtis Lowe II wrote: | Perhaps the only people who should drink alcohol are mature strong christians. It would seem to me those are the ones who have the wisdom and discipline have a drink, relax watch some football and them go to be with their own spouse.
While I am stirring...why do we always try to justify it as medicinal, why can't we just say it is relaxing and pleasurable. Is that sinful? Is it wrong to simply enjoy the relaxing feeling that some get from a glass of wine if we do not commit any sins? |
Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? Perhaps that is the starting point of being drunk, impaired by the alcohol (even if the impairment seems positive)? Worth considering at least, since we know no drunkard can inherit the Kingdom of God. |
There is some food for thought. Is any amount that alters your mind, too much? I don't think that we can say it becomes sin at .08%. |
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Posts: 5161
1/12/12 5:26 pm
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theElder |
And quoting Luther proves what?
He was raised in a culture and time when drinking alcohol was common and a very accepter practise. In our culture most sinners look down on folks who claim to be Christians who indulge alcohol.
Since that is a fact why would a 'mature, stong Christian' take a chance on being a stumbling block to a friend (or for that matter a total stranger) by drinking alcohol?
Are you guys wound so tight and are so strssed that you can't relax without drinking? If drinking alcohol is ok with you what about smoking pot? I just read of a study showing that smoking pot is less harmful to your lungs than smoking cigerretes. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
1/12/12 5:26 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Are you guys wound so tight and are so strssed that you can't relax without drinking? |
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1/12/12 5:30 pm
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philunderwood |
Quoting Luther PROVES he talked about it.
I do NOT drink, never have and never will...I chose that. However, I do not understand why drinking wine, and/or, beer, has been such a big issue on this board.
I tell my kids, or those who ask, if you never drink you'll never get drunk. I do not know what the limit is. I do hang with pastors and Jesus followers who do and I enjoy their presence, person and commitment to the Lord and his Kingdom.
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Posts: 3954
1/12/12 5:33 pm
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Clint Wills |
| philunderwood wrote: | Quoting Luther PROVES he talked about it.
I do NOT drink, never have and never will...I chose that. However, I do not understand why drinking wine, and/or, beer, has been such a big issue on this board.
I tell my kids, or those who ask, if you never drink you'll never get drunk. I do not know what the limit is. I do hang with pastors and Jesus followers who do and I enjoy their presence, person and commitment to the Lord and his Kingdom. |
This looks like good balance. It is much harder to get drunk if you never drink.
How about this for a reason to not drink. Here in Bend, beer is a major part of the culture. In our small county of about 150,000 people, there are 11 micro-breweries (calm down Peter - you can come visit!). If I go out to one of the pubs with friends (they are more like restaurants than taverns) and one of them asks me why I'm not drinking I get to share my faith a little. |
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Posts: 5161
1/12/12 5:39 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
To each their own understanding..
If a person can drink 10 drinks before he becomes drunk , then would not
1 drink present the taker as 1/10 drunk? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
1/12/12 5:39 pm
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Poimen |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | To each their own understanding..
If a person can drink 10 drinks before he becomes drunk , then would not
1 drink present the taker as 1/10 drunk? |
On paper, mathematically, yes. In real life, biologically, no. One is not drunk until they have ingested enough alcohol that it get's into the bloodstream and begins to impair them. At that point a person is drunk. Each person digests differently, and the potency of the drink also has an effect on how quickly or slowly such a condition is reached.
That said, I am not in favor of drinking. I am just pointing out that it is possible to consume a certain amount of alcohol without ever actually becoming drunk. The amount however varies from person to person and drink to drink.
Perhaps all the more wisdom in simple refraining.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
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1/12/12 5:44 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Perhaps it is only for mature Christians to drink alcohol.
Who then is mature?
As for why it is discussed on a self described COG board - I believe that would be because ministers of the COG are requested to abstain from it - yet a number of posters here don't want to abstain. Every few weeks they try to justify it.
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Posts: 16646
1/12/12 6:12 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Poimen wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | To each their own understanding..
If a person can drink 10 drinks before he becomes drunk , then would not
1 drink present the taker as 1/10 drunk? |
On paper, mathematically, yes. In real life, biologically, no. One is not drunk until they have ingested enough alcohol that it get's into the bloodstream and begins to impair them. At that point a person is drunk. Each person digests differently, and the potency of the drink also has an effect on how quickly or slowly such a condition is reached.
That said, I am not in favor of drinking. I am just pointing out that it is possible to consume a certain amount of alcohol without ever actually becoming drunk. The amount however varies from person to person and drink to drink.
Perhaps all the more wisdom in simple refraining. |
Then it would appear that this would have two possible answers.
1. Mathematically one would be deemed drunk by percentages
2. In real life the same person would be sober until the point of saturation.
I don't drink. The social repercussions of being a christian and using alcohol just don't mix with me. Others may find it OK. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
1/12/12 8:07 pm
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Poimen |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | To each their own understanding..
If a person can drink 10 drinks before he becomes drunk , then would not
1 drink present the taker as 1/10 drunk? |
On paper, mathematically, yes. In real life, biologically, no. One is not drunk until they have ingested enough alcohol that it get's into the bloodstream and begins to impair them. At that point a person is drunk. Each person digests differently, and the potency of the drink also has an effect on how quickly or slowly such a condition is reached.
That said, I am not in favor of drinking. I am just pointing out that it is possible to consume a certain amount of alcohol without ever actually becoming drunk. The amount however varies from person to person and drink to drink.
Perhaps all the more wisdom in simple refraining. |
Then it would appear that this would have two possible answers.
1. Mathematically one would be deemed drunk by percentages
2. In real life the same person would be sober until the point of saturation.
I don't drink. The social repercussions of being a christian and using alcohol just don't mix with me. Others may find it OK. |
So it would seem.
And as to your closing remarks, I concur. 
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/13/12 12:44 am
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
bradfreeman |
| Poimen wrote: | | Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? |
Yes, because we all know that relaxing and finding pleasure are prohibited for the Christian. 
| Quote: | | Perhaps that is the starting point of being drunk, impaired by the alcohol (even if the impairment seems positive)? Worth considering at least, since we know no drunkard can inherit the Kingdom of God. |
"Impairment", hmmm. Jesus said it was what came out of a man that defiled him. So the real questions are twofold:
1. Does the drink cause me to sin?
2. Does the drink master me?
3. Does drinking in certain circles cause someone to stumble?
If you can answer no to both, then bottom's up!
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Posts: 9027
1/13/12 7:31 am
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
bonnie knox |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? |
Yes, because we all know that relaxing and finding pleasure are prohibited for the Christian.
| Quote: | | Perhaps that is the starting point of being drunk, impaired by the alcohol (even if the impairment seems positive)? Worth considering at least, since we know no drunkard can inherit the Kingdom of God. |
"Impairment", hmmm. Jesus said it was what came out of a man that defiled him. So the real questions are twofold:
1. Does the drink cause me to sin?
2. Does the drink master me?
3. Does drinking in certain circles cause someone to stumble?
If you can answer no to both, then bottom's up! |
If you can't count to three, you've might have had too many.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/13/12 11:27 am
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peterz3fo |
| Quote: | | why can't we just say it is relaxing and pleasurable |
It is relaxing and pleasurable! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 395
1/13/12 2:19 pm
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Link |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Perhaps it is only for mature Christians to drink alcohol.
Who then is mature?
As for why it is discussed on a self described COG board - I believe that would be because ministers of the COG are requested to abstain from it - yet a number of posters here don't want to abstain. Every few weeks they try to justify it. |
A number of us who are not anti-drinking aren't drinkers either. I don't know why the topic keeps coming up. Probably someone in another thread mentions alcohol, an a reader starts a thread about it.
The reason I post on the subject is because I see such a great difference between what a lot of Pentecostal folks teach on this subject and what it says in the Bible. Drinking alcohol is specifically allowed in the Bible.
What traditions did Jesus leave us, as far as specific things to do together are concerned? He told the apostles to baptize. He also ate the Passover with them. Jesus had said of the scribes and Pharisees "Whatsoever therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do. But do not ye after their works." What did they drink at Passover-- fully fermented Passover wine. In Jesus' day, it was part of the observance.
So Jesus had the Passover with His disciples, and told them to drink the cup. This is a memorial we are to partake of until the Lord comes. If Christ gave us drinking to remember Him as an ongoing practice, how can it be a sin?
I can understand the conscience issue. If I were the type to have a beer, I wouldn't knowingly sit down in a restaurant with an alcoholic or a Pentecostal who didn't believe in drinking and drink a beer and urge them to have one, too.
But there is also the issue of teaching people to be judgmental of their brethren in Christ. There are plenty of other believers out there around the world who have no problem with moderate consumption of alcohol--including Pentecostals in countries other than our own. I have had wine that had a bit of alcohol in it during communion in a COG church overseas. One COG church had a bottle of something from Israel they mixed with some local stuff.
If you teach it is a sin to drink you can end up with members of your congregation who look down on someone else having a beer-- just one beer-- and who question the salvation of godly saints who do partake in moderation.
Do you think the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a grape juice bibber?
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Posts: 11849
1/13/12 3:54 pm
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
Poimen |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? |
Yes, because we all know that relaxing and finding pleasure are prohibited for the Christian.
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No, not at all. But the Scripture does forbid become intoxicated or impaired by alcohol. I am suggesting that drinking enough to feel even pleasant and relaxing effects from it IS impairment, however initial and insignificant that may be compared to yet further impairment.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/13/12 8:20 pm
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| Re: ok I am going to stir the pot a little |
Poimen |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | Perhaps because, apart from medicinal value, drinking enough to relax and find pleasure in the drink is too much? |
Yes, because we all know that relaxing and finding pleasure are prohibited for the Christian.
| Quote: | | Perhaps that is the starting point of being drunk, impaired by the alcohol (even if the impairment seems positive)? Worth considering at least, since we know no drunkard can inherit the Kingdom of God. |
"Impairment", hmmm. Jesus said it was what came out of a man that defiled him. So the real questions are twofold:
1. Does the drink cause me to sin?
2. Does the drink master me?
3. Does drinking in certain circles cause someone to stumble?
If you can answer no to both, then bottom's up! |
If you can't count to three, you've might have had too many. |
You would catch that.
Classic. 
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/13/12 8:21 pm
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