 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 Bowing to Buddha Externally |
Link |
This doesn't have that much to do with with the COG (Cleveland) denomination, but I thought I'd share it, to vent and get feedback.
I went to a certain Asian house church conference that had representatives from several countries. I was out of the country coming back the day before and I had ministry as a guest speaker at a church today. So I didn't go to the whole conference and only went for one day. It was kind of an open forum with a facilitator to lead the discussion. The main facilitator, a Filippino-- Chinese I think-- guy helped put the conference together. He was an acquaintence of a friend of mine who served on a missions related committee with him. My friend thought he was leaning toward liberal theology.
The Filippino Chinese man made a comment after one of the representatives from one of the ministries in a certain country told about the number of believers in Jesus who keep going to mosques and follow Is|amic customs in his country being in the millions. He said something about Buddhist followers of Jesus. So I asked him, "Do you mean bowing down to statues of Buddha and following Jesus."
He said, "Outwardly yes, but in their heart no."
I said, "No! No!"
That's the kind of thing I think Christian should oppose. Asians are a bit reserved and the ones there didn't say anything against it when he brought up the topic. Some expessed concern afterward in our conversation. Most of them weren't as fluent and English as myself and the Filipinos. I was wondering what the quiet guy sitting at the other table who'd planted 100 churches thought or some of the other Indonesian fellows there.
After I said that, a Singaporean fellow suggested they move on to some administrative business before break. I explained to a couple of Indonesians what he said. They didn't agree. I suggested they talk to him.
So I did talk to him during the break. We had a discussion that started kind of nervous and heated. I felt he was exuding a lot of emotion. After I asked for clarification, I asked how he could call himself a Christian and think it is okay for a Christian to bow to a statue of Buddha.
Basically, he said that before a new believer had told his parents his faith, in order to honor his parents, he should bow to a statue of Buddha so as not to seem rebellious in the family, but in his heart to bow to the creator.
So I said what if it was the emporer of Rome or Zeus instead of Buddha, and it was burning incense? That's one of the scnearios the book of Revelation addressed. We discussed other scenarios. He agreed with the idea of a young person in the same situation with a Satanist family bowing to a statue of Satan.
Relatively early in the conversation, I urged him to repent. He asked my forgivenss, but wasn't changing what he believed. I said that was meaningless. I meant, by repent, consider the issue and change his mind.
We discussed I Corinthians 10. I pointed out that the part about an idol being nothing and not eating in an idol's temple for the sake of the weaker brother, in I Corinthians 8 was only one leg of Paul's arguments. Paul gave other reasons-- the example of Israelites dying in the desert after committing idolatry, not provoking the Lord to jealousy, not fellowshipping with demons. These are all arguments to flee from idolatry.
I mentioned the fact that if an unbeliever tells you meat is offered to an idol, you shouldn't eat it, Paul says, for his and your own conscious sake. He said that was only in the case of a brother. I showed him the passage about an unbeliever inviting you to a feast.
I tried to explain to him the comparison between bowing and eating here. If you aren't supposed to eat meat offered to idols-- even though the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof--for the sake of the conscious of the unbeliever, you shouldn't bow either. He would have the young Chinese person bow to an idol in front of his parents.
His argument was that white people had a religious approach that wasn't working, that Chinese were going to Hell. If the young person bows to the idol, you can win the parents in four weeks if the young person doesn't seem rebellious, and it takes years the other way. He said Chinese were going to Hell.
I asked him how many Chinese got saved by bowing down to statues of Buddha. I asked him what he was talking about. There were 100 million Chinese. How many Christians in the Chinese churches taught the people to bow to Buddha like he did? How many of those Christians got saved from bowing to Buddha?
When he talked about westerners, I told him I knew Chinese and other Asians disagreed with his ideas. He backed off on that. I pointed to an Indonesian I knew there and said he was from a collectivist Asian culture and to ask his opinion about whether this was just a western approach. When he brought up individualism, I also pointed out how individualistic his idea that the individual is secretly bowing only externally is.
I know where he is coming from. I told him he's putting the missiology contextualization stuff above the word of God. I mentioned Missions Frontiers. I haven't read that much. But I did see an article on the web promoting synchretism, 'Hindu followers of Jesus' and 'Buddhist followers of Jesus.' Some of these contextual guys are so into keeping the 'bridges of God' that MacGravin talked about open, that they are willing to compromise Biblical truth and sin, IMO.
In Mo ham mad dan countries, you end up with missionaries who don't baptize people, teaching out of both religious texts, trying to promote this synchretized religion. Sometimes westerners bring it in. They tried to take the concept of Messianic Judaism (true Judaism is actually from God) and apply it to another monotheistic religion. Now, some of them are trying to apply it to paganism.
I like contextualization. But it seem to me to be spitting in the face of all those early Christians who would choose being beheaded or thrown to the lions over burning a pinch of incense to Caeser to acknowledge him as a God.
The Filippino Chinese even argued that if idolatry is a sin, it is a forgivable sin. Jesus said it was better to cut your hand off or pluck your eye out if it caused you to sin. He was acting as if participating in idolatry was the key to winning souls.
Anyway, it bothers me. I'm wondering how the different house church folks who, in discussing with me, disagreed with his statement, will handle it. I wonder if they are just going to let it pass, privately state their objection, if they will allow him to have some sort of organizer or leadership role and attend his little conferences in the future, or what? His apparently some kind of academic somewhere in the Filippines. He used to teach at an A/G school.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/14/16 5:53 am
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
Link |
I probably made the mistake of an OP that was too long. But I would have thought I would have gotten some response.
There were a lot of topics here for discussion.
-- idolatry and issues of the heart.
-- the problem of sychretism in missiology and putting missiological theory above scripture.
-- when is it appropriate to violate decorum a bit to counter something that may be a bit blasphemous or false teaching.
-- confronting someone who promotes error.
From my perspective, those were pertinent issues. I'm sure the other guy would disagree. This was a house church conference, which had an, albeit limited, open forum, made up of people who believe in 'open' mutually participatory church meetings.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/16/16 6:48 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Patrick Harris |
I honestly don't see the issue.
Elisha didn't seem to have an issue when Naaman asked forgiveness when he had to bow entering the temple of Rimmon.
I see no actual idolatry in his views or actions.
I would defer to his understanding of how Christianity needs to be received in his culture |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
8/16/16 7:40 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
UncleJD |
It is a serious issue. I would agree with you 100%. Its not without precedent either. From what I remember reading about the early church when faced with extreme persecutions had to deal with those who denied Christ (though they claimed that it was only for show to the Roman authorities), for example during the emperor worship decrees many in the Church would claim to worship the emperor to avoid persecution. Later they would return to the Church and ask forgiveness, some claiming this very thing that they did not bow to Caesar in their hearts. The bishops of the Church would usually deny them fellowship, especially after so many believers had been persecuted and even killed for not bowing down.
The following is not from the specific example that I remember reading of but its very similar
| Quote: | The Issue of Second Repentance
As was mentioned in the section on persecution in the Roman Empire, there was an ebb and flow in the persecution against Christians. It was not unusual for great numbers of believers to "lapse" during times of intense persecution. Some simply backed into the shadows for fear of being associated with the Christians. Others found it easy to go back to riotous living, the life of excessive drink and sexual indiscretions. Once the persecution lifted bishops would often find themselves faced with literally dozens, sometimes hundreds, of lapsed believers desiring to be readmitted to the fellowship of the saints. Lapsing during a time of persecution was a serious offense, especially when there were others who stood the test and were tortured and/or killed. Lapsed believers were not allowed to celebrate the Eucharist or to enter into the main church meeting, but had to sit in an outside room, or even outside the building or house. They could listen, but could not take part. Some never tried to come back, feeling that they were beyond forgiveness, others decided they did not want to come back.
In North Africa, according to Tertullian (On Purity 13), lapsed believers would dress in rags to show their penance, lay prostrate in the outer foyer where the elders would enter, and beg for prayer and forgiveness. Following 1 John 5:16,17 the elders were not to speak to or even pray for such "penitents," but were to let them continue in penance until the Lord somehow showed His mercy to them. Some of these lapsed believers would eventually give up, figuring they had lost their souls. Others would spend months, maybe years, in this condition, hoping that God would accept them when they died. |
the above was found at
http://www.churchhistory101.com/century2.php |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
8/16/16 7:50 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Link |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | I honestly don't see the issue.
Elisha didn't seem to have an issue when Naaman asked forgiveness when he had to bow entering the temple of Rimmon.
I see no actual idolatry in his views or actions.
I would defer to his understanding of how Christianity needs to be received in his culture |
He pointed out that passage as well, of course. I pointed out that Paul said that in the past, according to one translation, God overlooked the idolatry of Gentiles, but now He is calling all nations to repent. I also pointed out that his scenario was not about a young man helping his parents bow to Buddha, but bowing down to Buddha right there in front of his parents, who see his actions as worshipping Buddha.
Also, as far as weak consciences are concerned, how could a new believer who'd bowed to Buddha all his life NOT have a problem with it in terms of conscience? And if he asked for advice about whether he should bow to Buddha, his own conscience would be defiled.
But of course, I don't think you bow to Buddha at all, conscience or no. You don't willfully do such a thing as a Christian.
The Bible is against eating meat offered to idols. The apostles perceived the Holy Ghost as forbidding it. Jesus threatened to 'kill her children'-- of that woman Jezebel teaching people to fornicate and to eat meat offered to idols.
The thing Paul did is say that you can buy meat and eat meat at feasts without asking questions 'for the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.' But if someone tells you it was offered to an idol, you don't for your own conscience sake, and the sake of the one who told you.
Paul gives several reasons for not eating meat at an idol's temple.
1. Conscience-- your own, and the conscience of the one that might be emboldened to bow. (I Cor. 8, 10)
2. The example of God wiping out Israelites who engaged in idolatry (I Cor.10)
3. Not eating at the table of the Lord and the table of demons. (I Cor. 10).
4. Not having fellowship with demons. (I Cor. 10.)
5. Not provoking the Lord to jealousy (I Cor. 10).
Paul's instruction is to 'flee idolatry.' John says 'keep yourselves from idols'.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/16/16 8:20 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Bowing to Buddha Externally |
Ventureforth |
| Link wrote: | Basically, he said that before a new believer had told his parents his faith, in order to honor his parents, he should bow to a statue of Buddha so as not to seem rebellious in the family, but in his heart to bow to the creator.
His argument was that white people had a religious approach that wasn't working, that Chinese were going to Hell. If the young person bows to the idol, you can win the parents in four weeks if the young person doesn't seem rebellious, and it takes years the other way. He said Chinese were going to Hell.
I asked him how many Chinese got saved by bowing down to statues of Buddha. I asked him what he was talking about. There were 100 million Chinese. How many Christians in the Chinese churches taught the people to bow to Buddha like he did? How many of those Christians got saved from bowing to Buddha?
When he talked about westerners, I told him I knew Chinese and other Asians disagreed with his ideas. He backed off on that. I pointed to an Indonesian I knew there and said he was from a collectivist Asian culture and to ask his opinion about whether this was just a western approach. When he brought up individualism, I also pointed out how individualistic his idea that the individual is secretly bowing only externally is.
I know where he is coming from. I told him he's putting the missiology contextualization stuff above the word of God. I mentioned Missions Frontiers. I haven't read that much. But I did see an article on the web promoting synchretism, 'Hindu followers of Jesus' and 'Buddhist followers of Jesus.' Some of these contextual guys are so into keeping the 'bridges of God' that MacGravin talked about open, that they are willing to compromise Biblical truth and sin, IMO.
Anyway, it bothers me. I'm wondering how the different house church folks who, in discussing with me, disagreed with his statement, will handle it. I wonder if they are just going to let it pass, privately state their objection, if they will allow him to have some sort of organizer or leadership role and attend his little conferences in the future, or what? His apparently some kind of academic somewhere in the Filippines. He used to teach at an A/G school. |
If you don't mind, I have a few questions:
So, could the young person show respect in some other way than by bowing?
Does young person generally tell the parents he is a Christian before he bows? I'm just thinking if he doesn't, he may seem deceptive after he does tell them. If he does, the parents might know that he is not serious about what he is doing anyway.
When the parents convert after a while of seeing their son bow, what would their relationship with God be like? Is it generally a mixture of beliefs? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
8/16/16 9:11 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Bowing to Buddha Externally |
Link |
| Ventureforth wrote: |
If you don't mind, I have a few questions:
So, could the young person show respect in some other way than by bowing?
Does young person generally tell the parents he is a Christian before he bows? |
In his scenario, the young man bows only if he hasn't told him about his Christian beliefs yet, so that he is not seen as a rebel.
And if he tried to speak up and not bow, in Asian culture, children do not speak like that to parents, and I am a white guy who does not understand the culture, according to the man I was speaking with.
And it was either the young man bows to idols and the parents either never convert or take two years, and they convert in four weeks if he bows to Buddha. The scenarios were a bit unrealistic, IMO, but too much was going on in the conversation for me to really nail him down on the accuracy of his scenario.
When he got to the part about me being a white westerner who didn't understand and how the Chinese are going to Hell because of us whites bringing our ideas, I called him on it. What are you talking about, I asked? There may be 100 million Christians in China? How many of them got saved because someone bowed to Buddha? How many of them agree with your ideas. The local Asians I knew there, predominantly not Chinese, did not agree with him, not the ones I talked to.
Usually it's the white men bringing in the hypercontextualization, at least on the miss'nary side of things.
| Quote: |
I'm just thinking if he doesn't, he may seem deceptive after he does tell them. If he does, the parents might know that he is not serious about what he is doing anyway.
When the parents convert after a while of seeing their son bow, what would their relationship with God be like? Is it generally a mixture of beliefs? |
That's what I was thinking, too. What would the parents be converted to if part of it was that bowing to idols was okay?
Of course, bowing to a statue of Buddha is breaking one of the ten commandments, the first or the second depending on if you use Jewish or Christian reckoning. I hear some of the Jews take, "I am the LORD thy God" as a stand alone commandment all by itself, which is a pretty heavy thought.
He wanted to tell people to break one commandment to keep another, but I don't see why we have to worship idols to honor our parents.
When I asked him if he would advise the same for a statue of Satan in a family of Satanists, and he said yes, I found that even more shocking.
How is a former Buddha statue worshipper going to bow without having some conscience issue? And if his parents see him and they are Buddhists, of course they honor the idol. And the Bible doesn't teach that it is okay to bow even if you don't have 'conscience of the idol.'
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/16/16 9:52 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Ventureforth |
Forgive my ignorance. I should remember more about Buddhism than I do. If I remember correctly they, don't regard Buddha himself as a god. But there is some sort of universal consciousness. The idolatry is more covert, it seems.
Unfortunately, living for Christ, regardless of how loving that living is done, creates some division at some point.
Sometimes when I see Buddhists I sense a kind of empathy of emptiness (I think maybe that is from the Holy Spirit) which I believe is the emptiness of their soul even though they don't always realize it. Anyway, those are my thoughts. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
8/16/16 10:42 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Link |
| Ventureforth wrote: | Forgive my ignorance. I should remember more about Buddhism than I do. If I remember correctly they, don't regard Buddha himself as a god. But there is some sort of universal consciousness. The idolatry is more covert, it seems.
Unfortunately, living for Christ, regardless of how loving that living is done, creates some division at some point.
Sometimes when I see Buddhists I sense a kind of empathy of emptiness (I think maybe that is from the Holy Spirit) which I believe is the emptiness of their soul even though they don't always realize it. Anyway, those are my thoughts. |
I think that was the original Buddhist philosophy. Buddhism was originally very closely aligned with a philosophical issue within Hinduism that is still a part of Hinduism about removing want and how it related to the cycle of reincarnation. That is still an issue in Hinduism.
But when Buddhism went to China, it became an idolatrous religion with statues and praying to Buddha. Their 'Buddha' was supposed to have become enlightened and made one with the universe. Eastern Buddhists pray to Buddha as if he were a god.
They bow down to a graven image of a man to whom they pray and treat like a god and who they think reached a higher plane of existence. It sounds like idolatry to me.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/17/16 6:55 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
1 Thess 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
I'm going to have to say that bowing to idols is definitely very inconsistent with worshipping and serving the true and living God. Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego could have avoided all that fiery furnace stuff if only they had bowed to the king's idol 'externally.' |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
8/17/16 7:26 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Ventureforth |
| Link wrote: | | Ventureforth wrote: | Forgive my ignorance. I should remember more about Buddhism than I do. If I remember correctly they, don't regard Buddha himself as a god. But there is some sort of universal consciousness. The idolatry is more covert, it seems.
Unfortunately, living for Christ, regardless of how loving that living is done, creates some division at some point.
Sometimes when I see Buddhists I sense a kind of empathy of emptiness (I think maybe that is from the Holy Spirit) which I believe is the emptiness of their soul even though they don't always realize it. Anyway, those are my thoughts. |
I think that was the original Buddhist philosophy. Buddhism was originally very closely aligned with a philosophical issue within Hinduism that is still a part of Hinduism about removing want and how it related to the cycle of reincarnation. That is still an issue in Hinduism.
But when Buddhism went to China, it became an idolatrous religion with statues and praying to Buddha. Their 'Buddha' was supposed to have become enlightened and made one with the universe. Eastern Buddhists pray to Buddha as if he were a god.
They bow down to a graven image of a man to whom they pray and treat like a god and who they think reached a higher plane of existence. It sounds like idolatry to me. |
Sounds like it to me also. Thanks for explanation. Interesting. There's more than one form of idolatry. I was thinking perhaps some are drawn into Buddhism with the impression that it was little more than a philosophy, self help, etc. and they might have the belief that they weren't actually praying to an idol. The devil can be cunning.
Well, I don't know if I've helped but I've sure learned.  Thanks again. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
8/17/16 10:14 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
