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vintagefaith77 |
| emergent vs. traditonal...blah, blah, blah. Can't we just say that we all love Jesus with all of our hearts and want to see people come to know Him?? We will ALWAYS differ in methods, tastes and preferences, but we are ALL a part of the Body of Christ and we all want the same thing. Things are changing adn they will continue to change, but these incorrect stereotypes and gross over generalizations will bring nothing but division. Neither side is wrong...they're both right as far as their culture and context dictate. So, let's just pray for each other and help each other and work with each other. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
3/30/07 9:16 pm
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Telecaster |
| I'll shoot straight. I use a number of "emergent" ways in my traditional approach. I don't so much condemn the emergent movement as I do the attitude behind it towards others and the usual, at least my experience and I've had a lot, lack of discipleship, training, real worship, and Holy Ghost take over services. I'll never buy into watering things down. I'll never buy into taking up worship time to play a top 40 song because people enjoy it. I'll never buy into putting more emphasis on a video clip than the Word of God. I won't be ignorant as you say I am, and say for a fact every emergent church does these things, but as I've stated there are a number that do just as there are a number of traditional churches that can't reach anyone because they are so stuck on themselves and the color of the carpet. I believe I am innovative and on the edge of ideas and relevancy in ministry, but I can't go along with anyone or anything that belittles the role of the Holy Ghost in the winning of souls and the discipling of those souls. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/30/07 10:04 pm
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vintagefaith77 |
| Telecaster wrote: | | I'll shoot straight. I use a number of "emergent" ways in my traditional approach. I don't so much condemn the emergent movement as I do the attitude behind it towards others and the usual, at least my experience and I've had a lot, lack of discipleship, training, real worship, and Holy Ghost take over services. I'll never buy into watering things down. I'll never buy into taking up worship time to play a top 40 song because people enjoy it. I'll never buy into putting more emphasis on a video clip than the Word of God. I won't be ignorant as you say I am, and say for a fact every emergent church does these things, but as I've stated there are a number that do just as there are a number of traditional churches that can't reach anyone because they are so stuck on themselves and the color of the carpet. I believe I am innovative and on the edge of ideas and relevancy in ministry, but I can't go along with anyone or anything that belittles the role of the Holy Ghost in the winning of souls and the discipling of those souls. |
I don't think 1 "emerging" person on this board is asking you to "go along" with them. I think it's more a matter of respect and support...and if either side is saying that God can't use ANY church He feels like using, then they are DEAD WRONG! My parents pastor a smallish, fairly traditional COG congregation in Maryland. Do they sing songs I like to hear? Not all the time. Do they have a banjo in their worship band? Yes! Is their ministry methodology different than my own. Probably. But I just said to them 3 nights ago that they are on the cutting edge of what God wants to do in their community and in their context. God is using them (with their personality/talents/style) to reach people in their context. In my opinion, they shouldn't change a thing because they are being effective for the kingdom.
But, if they came to our church and tried to do things the way they do it there, it probably wouldn't go over well. That's because WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT!!!! My generation is VERY media/experience driven, so why not give them an experience when they come to church??? The Jewish temple was EXTREMELY sensory driven. They could smell incense, hear shofar's and prayers, see the beautiful temple, taste bitter herbs and lamb and touch things all around them. So, why is it wrong or "watering down" if we try to engage people's senses in contemporary church???? I agree, if a church is only showing 'videos' and singing 'top40' songs instead of preaching the Word and truly worshipping, then they are compromising. And Telecaster, 1 area that I do agree with you is the move of the Holy Spirit in a service. If our plans do not allow the Holy Spirit to move in a Biblical, orderly way, then our excellence has grieved the Spirit.
I guess I'm trying to say that if we hold true to our core doctrines and allow the Holy Spirit to move and we're LOVING each other, then I really don't care if we worship with blue grass or spoons...I just want to advance God's kingdom in my generation and never have a superior attitude about my methods or style. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
3/31/07 1:02 am
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Telecaster |
| I woudln't call it a superior attitude as I would Biblical convictions. No one has asked me to be a part of the movement, but if I can't be a part of a movement, then I have an even harder time supporting it. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 7:40 am
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| Telecaster, I have enjoyed your posts. |
Layperson |
| You have defended your convictions well in this thread,. Keep up the good work. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/31/07 11:18 am
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Layperson |
| vintagefaith77 wrote: | | emergent vs. traditonal...blah, blah, blah. Can't we just say that we all love Jesus with all of our hearts and want to see people come to know Him?? We will ALWAYS differ in methods, tastes and preferences, but we are ALL a part of the Body of Christ and we all want the same thing. Things are changing adn they will continue to change, but these incorrect stereotypes and gross over generalizations will bring nothing but division. Neither side is wrong...they're both right as far as their culture and context dictate. So, let's just pray for each other and help each other and work with each other. |
I agree that we should all help each other and pray for each other, but I don't think the differences are insignificant. I fear that the emergent group, based on what I have seen from this board, are in a "falling away" mode. In my opinion they are trying to embrace the world and Christianity, and the two just doesn't mix. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/31/07 11:24 am
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Travis Johnson |
| Layperson wrote: | | I agree that we should all help each other and pray for each other, but I don't think the differences are insignificant. I fear that the emergent group, based on what I have seen from this board, are in a "falling away" mode. In my opinion they are trying to embrace the world and Christianity, and the two just doesn't mix. |
Please identify by name those who are "falling away." That might be helpful for the discussion. I'd also be interested to hear who you think are Emergent. A third category of "World Embraces" might help as well. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/31/07 11:42 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Telecaster wrote: | | I woudln't call it a superior attitude as I would Biblical convictions. No one has asked me to be a part of the movement, but if I can't be a part of a movement, then I have an even harder time supporting it. |
That's crazy. I can't be a part of a women's ministry, does that mean I can't support it? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/31/07 11:57 am
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Telecaster |
| tripsD wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | I woudln't call it a superior attitude as I would Biblical convictions. No one has asked me to be a part of the movement, but if I can't be a part of a movement, then I have an even harder time supporting it. |
That's crazy. I can't be a part of a women's ministry, does that mean I can't support it? |
I was waiting on some smart allic remark from someone. It took longer for someone to bite than I thought. What I'm saying is, if I can't be a part of that ministry (their vision, their mission, their ideology, etc.) then I can't support it.
Thanks Layperson. I enjoy your posts as well and appreciate your convictions. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 12:29 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Telecaster wrote: | | I was waiting on some smart allic remark from someone. It took longer for someone to bite than I thought. What I'm saying is, if I can't be a part of that ministry (their vision, their mission, their ideology, etc.) then I can't support it. |
It wasn't a smart alek remark, and I'm sorry you took it that way. But, you've said the same thing twice. I can't be a part of a women's ministry's vision, mission or ideology, but that doesn't mean I can't still support them and their efforts to reach people that I can't reach. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/31/07 12:51 pm
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Telecaster |
| tripsD wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | | I was waiting on some smart allic remark from someone. It took longer for someone to bite than I thought. What I'm saying is, if I can't be a part of that ministry (their vision, their mission, their ideology, etc.) then I can't support it. |
It wasn't a smart alek remark, and I'm sorry you took it that way. But, you've said the same thing twice. I can't be a part of a women's ministry's vision, mission or ideology, but that doesn't mean I can't still support them and their efforts to reach people that I can't reach. |
Sure you can be a part of a women's ministry vision, mission, and ideology. Explain how men always work women's retreats so the women can soak up services and so forth. Those men share in the vision of Women's Ministries and know that their ability to work in place of the women allow that vision to be carried out. As for mission, it's the women's ministries mission to raise up Godly women. Though I'm not a woman, I can help and assist in that mission by doing my part to support whatever ministries they promote and involve themselves in. As for ideology, the same goes as for vision and mission.
Gender doesn't seperate one's ability to agree and be a part of a ministry in some way. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 2:19 pm
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| You are not going to get me in that trap. |
Layperson |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Layperson wrote: | | I agree that we should all help each other and pray for each other, but I don't think the differences are insignificant. I fear that the emergent group, based on what I have seen from this board, are in a "falling away" mode. In my opinion they are trying to embrace the world and Christianity, and the two just doesn't mix. |
Please identify by name those who are "falling away." That might be helpful for the discussion. I'd also be interested to hear who you think are Emergent. A third category of "World Embraces" might help as well. |
Trying to get me banned Travis? No, I am not going to name names because you would then jump all over me for being judgmental...I am speaking generically... You can go back through the previous posts and pretty well pick them out yourself. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/31/07 3:03 pm
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| Hey Vintage! |
Rayford J. Bethune |
Rayford J. Bethune wrote:
How can you justify rebellion against authority? Oh, I know, you don't agree with you leadership because your right and God is leading you in a new place of serving Him.
If you question the status quo and wonder why things are done the way they're done, is that "rebelling against authority"?? I didn't know that when I accepted my credentials that I was required to leave my brain and my free will at the door. It's attitudes like this one that turn me off...I tell my youth all the time that the best way to learn is to QUESTION, QUESTION, QUESTION! If we are afraid to ask the hard questions, then we will settle for the easy way out every time. So, Bro. Bethune, I respect your opinion, but I don't think asking questions is equal to rebellion and I'm sorry if you do.
When did I say you couldn't question what was being done? I ask about rebellion. To disagree is not to rebel, but to act against authority because you disagree is rebellion.
How many times have you sit down with the COG leadership and ask them questions? Or do you just use this board to express your unhappiness?
Anyway, my point was can any of us justify REBELLION?
Here is Websters definition of rebellion. (1) opposition to one in authority or dominance. (2a) open defiance of or resistance to an established government (2b) an instance of such defiance or resistance.
My point to this entire topic was that the COG is not losing its brightest and youngest and those that believe we are losing them all; read my previous post and reply with numbers, not opinions. I ask for 100 names in 10 years that have left the COG.. Surely if we are losing them there are someone that can name 100. During the last 10 years the COG has probably credentialed about 14,000 according to some of the file #s listed in another post. Now they may not all be young (under 35) but I am guessing many of them are. Whatever age they are I am glad to have them in our denomination!
Just a thought to all that are not considered young. God can still use you as much as anyone in the ministry. And to those that are older and been in the COG for many years, I say "THANK YOU" and God bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rayford J. Bethune
Senior Pastor, The Refuge
Fort Payne, Alabama
[/list] |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 52
3/31/07 8:57 pm
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| Help! |
Rayford J. Bethune |
Can someone tell me how to put what was previously posted in the box so when I respond it would at least look like I know a little about computers. LOL I sure would appreciate it.
Rayford |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 52
3/31/07 9:00 pm
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| Re: Best and Brightest |
KevinLloyd |
| atouchoffolly wrote: | | We are losing our best and brightest because it is easier for a denomination to die than to change and easier for an individual to leave than to confront hypocrisy. In reality, the death of a denomination isn't that big a deal. The church will go on, but Ill miss the COG. |
well. there you go.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 9:28 pm
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KevinLloyd |
i'm not claiming to be the best or the brightest. and i do think the the CoG can & probably will change one day. the problem is...we don't know when that day will be. will it be when enough people get too old to be in leadership? even then, will it happen?
one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
this is frustrating to see all of this. i know it's happening in the denomination...but it's SO RARE. for me, i just wasn't willing to wait on the changes. i felt like this was my time and i needed to position myself in the best place for growth.
i do think the CG can & will change. and hopefully the todd sturgell's, troy hamby's, brian hunters, dart stricklands, etc of the movement will help that happen. hopefully they will be given the voice to make that happen.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 9:36 pm
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| Numbers |
atouchoffolly |
I hate to beat this thread to death, but I think there is a fallacy in your case for successful churches.
One only needs the funds and the will to do it to have a church run a large number. Ill be sure to post the strategy later.
If I was a pastor, numbers would be the least of my concerns.
_________________
If there is a time to hate, as Ecclesiastes suggests, it is when we are children, when we don't know any better, when we think hate is something we can's help. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 111
3/31/07 10:09 pm
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| Re: Numbers |
KevinLloyd |
| atouchoffolly wrote: | I hate to beat this thread to death, but I think there is a fallacy in your case for successful churches.
One only needs the funds and the will to do it to have a church run a large number. Ill be sure to post the strategy later.
If I was a pastor, numbers would be the least of my concerns. |
#'s are a measurement tool. they don't define success...but they can't be ignored. if you look at any of the churches that i listed, they are doing alot more than just trying to "get big numbers". and they did have the funds at first either.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 10:20 pm
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Political_Pastor |
| Quote: | | If I was a pastor, numbers would be the least of my concerns. |
#1. At a recent conference I heard Perry Noble say, "If you tell me it's not about numbers, I'll punch you in the throat!"
#2. Someone else said, "Jesus didn't die for just 10 quality people."
#3. But on the other hand, "You can't just God blessing on a ministry by the number of people they have, Hitler had a lot of people."
But to say that you wouldn't be concerned about numbers is ridiculous, you would, it would just be which way you looked at it. And the chances are if you are small, you would go with #3, but if you were in a larger church you would go with #1 or #2. Perception, that's what it comes down to. It's all in how you perceive something. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 246
3/31/07 10:30 pm
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| No seriously |
atouchoffolly |
Wasn't it David who was rebuked by the Lord for numbering Gods people.
In my mind, it is much more ridiculous to be concerned about numbers than not concerned. First, numbers indicate very little about the commitment of the people to God. They indicate nothing about spiritual maturity. They do reflect a cult of personality and large churches are built exclusively with the sheep of other churches.
Large churches mean large buildings, large budgets, and large egos. It says nothing about doctrine. In fact, pastors are only effective in pastoral roles to around 120 people. This senior pastor, preaching pastor, administrative pastor junk is nonsense. Lets build an organic church that's heavy on relationships without the waterfall in the lobby.
_________________
If there is a time to hate, as Ecclesiastes suggests, it is when we are children, when we don't know any better, when we think hate is something we can's help. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 111
3/31/07 10:40 pm
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