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 Re: It occurs to me.... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Buck Marshall wrote: | | I may not have specifically said this. But, if I had it to do over again... I wouldn't have refinanced when I first became the pastor 6 1/2 years ago. That was a mistake. I had never been a senior pastor and I can say it was a mistake of the head not the heart. That is something that I own. No ones fault but mine. Sure the elders, church, state council and overseer were agreeable but still it wouldn't have happened without me... So I own that. |
Agreed - you and a few thousand other guys have made the same mistake.
John Nichols is a great guy - but that note on the Wimauma campground was a killer. It didn't make him any less of a great guy - but it was not the wisest move.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
7/10/13 5:40 pm
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SouthGeorgiaBoy |
| bigchurchmouse wrote: | You have learned a valuable lesson, Buck. The other people you named share the responsibility with you. At least you did not borrow more money and then move to a bigger church and leave the debt for another pastor to pay. I have seen that happen more than once.
I believe if your situation had been handled differently you would have been happy to work through the financial problems and move full speed ahead. If as much time and effort had been spent trying to help your church recover as was wasted on meetings and inspections which caused so much hurt and frustrations there would be a much different outcome. We can all hope that the other people involved also learned some lessons. Maybe it will spare another minister some of the pain you have suffered. |
Boy your commentary is certainly biased. Have you talked to the overseer to see how it was handled? I doubt it.
If what one poster said is true, there is double the amount owed on the same building now than before. Who do you think is going to pay for that now? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
7/10/13 6:05 pm
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oldbigtex |
Buck owed well under 200k we he took the church.
No new buildings and now 430 k.
Paid staff with some of money he borrowed.
state office made another payment earlier this weak |
New Member
Posts: 11
7/10/13 7:39 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| oldbigtex wrote: | Buck owed well under 200k we he took the church.
No new buildings and now 430 k.
Paid staff with some of money he borrowed.
state office made another payment earlier this weak |
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
7/10/13 9:38 pm
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| When is enough, enough? |
SHINTEX |
How many times does a man have to admit he made a mistake? That shows honesty and character on his part.
The bad refinance decision in the beginning sounds like he was trying to grow a church, which requires finances. An AB's job is to Oversee the pastor's/churches. A State Council's job is to assist and protect the State they serve by making the best financial decisions.
AB's serve average 2-4 years average, their decisions last many years later.
Buck may personally take full responsibility for the re-finance but we all know as minister's the AB and the State Council serving 6 1/2 years ago had to approve the decision. That is why qualified men should be elected to serve on a State Council to make sure young minister's don't make such decisions without being stopped. They don't know, they need the elders to teach them.
The AB and State Council are to blame for this situation, at the end of the day, Buck may have asked for the money but they were the last ones to sign off on the church going into debt.
From what I've read, no oversight, no teaching, serving in title only |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
7/10/13 11:11 pm
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| Re: When is enough, enough? |
deskjet7 |
| SHINTEX wrote: | How many times does a man have to admit he made a mistake? That shows honesty and character on his part.
The bad refinance decision in the beginning sounds like he was trying to grow a church, which requires finances. An AB's job is to Oversee the pastor's/churches. A State Council's job is to assist and protect the State they serve by making the best financial decisions.
AB's serve average 2-4 years average, their decisions last many years later.
Buck may personally take full responsibility for the re-finance but we all know as minister's the AB and the State Council serving 6 1/2 years ago had to approve the decision. That is why qualified men should be elected to serve on a State Council to make sure young minister's don't make such decisions without being stopped. They don't know, they need the elders to teach them.
The AB and State Council are to blame for this situation, at the end of the day, Buck may have asked for the money but they were the last ones to sign off on the church going into debt.
From what I've read, no oversight, no teaching, serving in title only |
Pastor Marshall did what he thought was best at the time. His church had to also supported his decision. The church asked and accepted the responsibility of this loan.
Correct me if am wrong, but under our current system, any property loan that a Church of God church takes out belongs to all of us no matter if their is a cosigner or not. Even if there was no underwriting of this note, since this is one of our churches, Texas would still step in to clear up the debt. If there was no renewal of this note back a few years. But it was that note in question, we could still be in this same position. Debt can kill churches quicker than a church split can. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/11/13 12:12 am
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| Re: When is enough, enough? |
seanr25 |
| SHINTEX wrote: |
The AB and State Council are to blame for this situation, at the end of the day, Buck may have asked for the money but they were the last ones to sign off on the church going into debt. |
So the AB and the State Council at the time of the re-fi are to blame for the mortgage not being paid? What color is the sky in your world?? The state office made the same bad error in judgement as Buck and the people of New Hope. Do u think that any of the involved parties saw this end when the decision was made to refinance? It's obvious that whatever doubt they had was out-weighed by the faith and hope they had in seeing this church succeed.
It shows mental incompetence to try to lay blame on one side, but that is just my incompetent opinion.... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 445
7/11/13 1:25 am
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bigchurchmouse |
We expect state overseers and state council members to be wiser than young, first time pastors. Generally, they are much older and most have pastored churches for many years. They should offer that wisdom to help steer pastors away from unwise financial decisions.
When the church first got into financial problems apparently there was a meeting with Buck. Why did the state leaders not come along side Buck and the church leadership and not only offer wise counsel but follow the situation more closely? The drastic action that was taken likely could have been avoided. If Buck had felt like he had state leadership on his team he and his congregation would likely still be in the COG and would be moving forward keeping the ship afloat. Instead, the state may be making many more payments in the months to come. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2857
7/11/13 6:43 am
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Brandon Bowers |
Wow.. All this finger pointing and blaming by uninvolved 3rd parties is really helping this situation.. I can see it's actually helping to sort out the whole mess..
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4804
7/11/13 8:39 am
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| Re: Just think |
Ben Gates |
If he couldn't pay the bills for a building he already had what makes him think he can pay the bills for a new building. A bank would be out of its mind to loan a church he pastor's any money. It seems to me from all the reading that they were always behind on one thing or another. How do you double your debt but have nothing new to show for it. Maybe a business class or two would help him out.
| John Jett wrote: | | deskjet7 wrote: | | This congregation in Ennis has become selfish. They knew they could just walk away at no cost to them, but the Church of God still owes the debt because we underwrote the note. Basically they were renters. |
Seriously? The congregation had its pastor ripped away by a committee. The pastor practically begged the AB to not remove him and asked what scenario would allow him to stay and was told basically 'NONE'. We had someone who was willing to pay the debt current but was told by the AB that even if that happened he could not promise that the pastor would not be removed! Even then, we came up with money to pay the past-due bills current rather than walking away (selfish?). It was the state, not the people that broke trust here. Today, this congregation has no building, nothing easy, a hard road ahead. Selfish? I think that word (along with a few others) can best be ascribed to those who made the decisions that lead to this.
| deskjet7 wrote: | | If the New Hope Church of God could in a short period of time, upon being notified that the pastor was going to be removed, then could rally together to pay current all the bills of the church, why did they not do this to remain in the location they were in in the first place? |
Because the pastor asked how could he fix the situation and was told he couldn't. Raise the money? "NO" Fire staff members? "NO" ... According to the AB, he was going to be given no remedy to fix this, PERIOD, he was being removed ("because the bank and council were demanding it"). Remember, it was only AFTER the fact, after he had to tell his wife and children, elders and staff, and AFTER he had refused new appointments to other cities which he had not been called to, that they changed their minds and were willing to let him stay on "suspended/etc...". This fact is irrefutable and was admitted by the AB on Sunday morning in front of the whole congregation (his exact words "Everything you pastor has told you is true" after Buck had given the timeline and what he offered to do to stay on). A congregation that was stunned and who, in no way, valued a building over a ministry.
The COG government's fantasy that it could just whisk away the pastor and the whole congregation would dutifully stay and wait for its next appointed pastor is from a bygone era. At least in Texas, the very men that created this situation are the same that ended the former practices of the COG in Texas of having district meetings/rallies/youth-events, etc.. that was the very reason you could do those things in the past. Out of suspicion of each-other, they no longer wanted to have their congregations fellowship together since they were afraid of "sheep stealing" as one of them used to put it.
That will always be one of the things I miss the most about the COG in Texas, when we felt like a large community because we all knew each other. But that COG has not existed since the mid 80s (long before Buck Marshall was involved in ministry). |
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Friendly Face
Posts: 192
7/11/13 11:21 am
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Change Agent |
This discussion board may get some AB's to tread more lightly than they normally would knowing that their comings and goings were going to be scrutnized. Also wonder how Cleveland COG views how this went down?
Its been very quiet from those higher up. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
7/11/13 12:28 pm
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Cojak |
I am hoping as I read this that prayer and love will prevail, the church body and building will survive and be reunited.
As in any situation of conflict there is enough blame to go around. Our biggest problem is we unknowingly follow our government's lead whether local or federal, "Find someone to blame, and the problem is over. Go on to 'SOLVE' the next problem." 
(Notice how well that works in Washington?) 
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01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
7/11/13 1:11 pm
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| done |
John Jett |
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
7/11/13 1:21 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
I wonder how this discussion is going on the OURCOG board?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
7/11/13 4:33 pm
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Ben Gates |
Huh!!! He doubled the debt from 200k to 430k and then didn't just leave the church, he took most of the elders and members with him!
| bigchurchmouse wrote: | | At least you did not borrow more money and then move to a bigger church and leave the debt for another pastor to pay. |
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Friendly Face
Posts: 192
7/12/13 6:10 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | I wonder how this discussion is going on the OURCOG board? |
You get the real story there. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
7/12/13 6:35 am
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bigchurchmouse |
I know that reasonable people often disagree. The pastors I was referring to all asked for and were assigned to other churches. They left and so did most of the church leadership who pushed for the bigger bldg.
Could anyone possibly believe that Buck wanted to leave this church? His church got into financial trouble. The state leadership had the chance to invest time, prayer and effort into helping Buck and his congregation find a way to resolve the situation. Instead, as reported not only by Buck but other posters as well, they rushed in and made some unwise decisions. It has been reported that the bank added $4,500 to the loan when the AB informed them that the pastor was leaving. That is just one of the unintended consequences from the major rush to judgment.
No need to rehash all of the blunders that happened. The state officials and the entire COG will have plenty of time to revisit what mistakes were made. "Act in haste, repent in leisure" is an old saying. It fits this situation better than anything you or I can add. The state will likely be making a lot of payments while it repents. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2857
7/12/13 7:09 am
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AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | I wonder how this discussion is going on the OURCOG board? |
You get the real story there. |
Does anyone use that place besides you...I see a lot of post but very little response on anything. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 202
7/12/13 2:45 pm
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philunderwood |
| AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN wrote: | | Does anyone use that place besides you...I see a lot of post but very little response on anything. |
It really is not conducive to discussion, and the content of the topics is pretty straightforward. It comes across as more of a compilation of articles, blogs and thoughts that are good, per content, but that do not provoke dialog.
But, we are hijacking this thread... let's get back to what is important here - people being people and God letting us work it out, work it through and work to change.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
7/12/13 3:23 pm
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| there was not rushing in |
deskjet7 |
| bigchurchmouse wrote: | I know that reasonable people often disagree. The pastors I was referring to all asked for and were assigned to other churches. They left and so did most of the church leadership who pushed for the bigger bldg.
Could anyone possibly believe that Buck wanted to leave this church? His church got into financial trouble. The state leadership had the chance to invest time, prayer and effort into helping Buck and his congregation find a way to resolve the situation. Instead, as reported not only by Buck but other posters as well, they rushed in and made some unwise decisions. It has been reported that the bank added $4,500 to the loan when the AB informed them that the pastor was leaving. That is just one of the unintended consequences from the major rush to judgment.
No need to rehash all of the blunders that happened. The state officials and the entire COG will have plenty of time to revisit what mistakes were made. "Act in haste, repent in leisure" is an old saying. It fits this situation better than anything you or I can add. The state will likely be making a lot of payments while it repents. |
Rushed in? I don't think so. The church has had a history of being late on their payments for six years. New Hope Church has been there 6 1/2 years. Doesn't seem to be a rush to me since this is 2013. Since that time there has been continued working with the church dealing with past due payments on loans. Rush? is 6 years rushing?
From the time New Hope came to the Ennis Church of God, New Hope received open arms from the state to help that church congregation. Unfortunately, at what now will be at the State expense, the amount of indebtedness has increased, not gone down as some of you would believe. For what? No new additions to the building, so at this point the state is left with the tab of double the amount now due then when before New Hope congregation took the Ennis Church of God. There was also an additional six figure loan taken out sometime ago by the church. Still no additions to the building, or property purchased.
What is disturbing is that the church operated by getting loans, etc under Ennis Church of God, but kept their 501C3 status with as New Hope Church. So they walk away from Ennis Church of God, back independent as New Hope Church with no obligation to the loans they took out.
All of you feeling sorry for how they were "treated," really? The Texas Church of God has been very accommodating to the pastor and New Hope Church. How many places do you think you could walk into a building, get loans, spend that money, then once that well has run dry, just walk away, owing nothing? The money is stilled owed, they kindly just left it in Ennis Church of God name, so guess who pays the bill now? The Church of God.
Some of the reasoning by one attender of New Hope that posted on this thread is that the building is valued far more than the loans that are out on the building. So that justifies all this? Money is still due and banks will foreclose on defaulted loans.
Have we learned? Oh yes, we have learned the hard way.
Rush? I don't think so bigchurchmouse.
While some of you blast the Texas AB for his actions, and I might say that if you speak against him, you speak against all of us in Texas, we are thankful he has the fortitude to handle tough situations and does not have the attitude to just leave these problems with the next AB and take the easy way out. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/12/13 6:23 pm
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