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Is Perfect Will of God and Permission Will of God Biblical?

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **2/9/12 8:55 am**

If this has been discussed here recently, then I apologize, I missed it.

I was raised Independent Shouting Baptist, then got the Holy Ghost and was in the COG for 18 years. I've now been out of the COG for 3 years and all my time in church, I've heard a lot of discussion and disagreement over the concept that there is a Perfect Will of God, and there is also a Permissive Will of God.

Now, as you probably have perceived from anything I've written, I'm a very conservative guy. I go to a church that still teaches the old "standards", and since I came back to the Lord I've tried to live a life that brings God glory in word and deed. But I've also been a recipient of God's grace. I've known His forebearance, longsuffering, and mercy in my life when I terribly failed him, and brought so much shame to Him as well as His church. I've known His judgement, but also known His sweet love and grace.

I've had some down the years try to tell me that the concept that there is a Perfect Will of God and a Permissive Will of God isn't Biblical, and that it's just me trying to justify when I fall short of living for the Lord as I should. Now, I'm a pretty black and white kind of guy. Most of my life really is black and white in many ways due to the type of work I'm in. But when I study scripture, I just don't see it that way.

Wasn't it God's Perfect Will that Moses would lead the children of Israel into the promised land, but because of his disobedience, Moses ended up in God's Permissive Will? He wasn't totally cut off, but didn't get to know the fullness of God's original destiny for him.

What about Peter? He denied the Lord, but preached a message on the Day of Pentecost that changed the world. Was he totally cut off from the Lord as soon as he denied knowing Christ, or was he in the Permissive Will of God still?

What about the New Testament Church? We see where the writers saw there was some abuse of the gifts, some trying to bring Jewish Law and tradition into the church, and some even letting the flesh rise up through their quarreling and wandering eyes... but I don't see that the writers said, you're lost again. I see them warning them, and telling them there is a more perfect way to live for the Lord.

I sincerely love the Lord. I don't believe in unconditional grace and security no matter what I do. I don't believe I have a license to sin... but I am really in a debate internally over this. I don't want to talk myself into some false teaching, but I just keep coming back to the concept, there is a Perfect Will of God and a Permissive Will of God.

What say you? I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this. If I'm misleading myself, please someone help me. Thanks.
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ

The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret...

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4804 **2/9/12 9:05 am**

Ahhh.. This one..

I had a crazy ex-girlfriend years ago who really took advantage of this doctrine. She wasn't crazy due to this doctrine. I was many other things! Laughing

I see this idea as a human construct to a Biblical pattern... Much like the initial evidence doctrine - You can search through the plethora of threads here on that one. No need to hijack!

Honestly, I think it's a stretch to make this one a set doctrine or belief. It's like saying God has a Plan B. I think God has a Plan A and we don't obey, therefore God gives us grace to pursue our own Plan B.

Maybe Grace is the key word here.. God's Plan A would be for us to obey the 10 Commandments, the Great Commission, and the Great Commandment... But we don't 100% of the time.. That's grace.

Just simplify it to grace and your life might be a little less complicated! Wink

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Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **2/9/12 9:12 am**

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4804 **2/9/12 9:16 am**

If we were in God's perfect will, we'd still be in Garden of Eden.. God was gracious enough to allow mankind to continue on, even though the penalty for sin is death.

And now... For the rest of the story..
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Think of it this way...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **2/9/12 10:29 am**

I have a 6 year old son and a 4 year old daughter. When I tell them what to do, that is the ONLY plan I've got. If they say "no", they are not moving into my permissive will, they are moving out of my will completely. Of course that doesn't mean that I kick them out of the house because they do things that I'm not okay with. It means that I will work with them to get them behaving according to my will and plan for our household.

I think it's the same thing for us. One of the most famous verses in the Bible says, "I know the plans I have for you...". My viewpoint is that God has this perfect blueprint, and we are permitted to step away from those plans (everyone NOT walking with the Lord for instance), but that does not make that His permissive will....it means we are not walking in communion with God. Like Brandon said, there is grace that God will work with us to either get us back on His plan OR He may even have to create a new plan if we have gotten too far off track from His original plan.

I love the people that talk about the verse that says "all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial" in order to justify being "allowed" to do something. I think that is a place where God's "permissive" will comes from. Why on earth someone would say to themselves, "I know this might not fall under the 'beneficial' side, but it is permissible so I'm gonna do it" astounds me. Do the things that are beneficial and constructive and you won't have to worry about what is and is not "allowed".

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **2/9/12 12:01 pm**

Clint, I'm not sure I completely agree with the parent child analogy... that child will always be your child no matter what they do... but if I deliberately turn my back on the Will of God in my life, and walk in continued willful disobedience, I'm not longer in covenant with Christ. I've trodden under the blood of Christ, and now and lost again... under what I believe.

Your analogy almost sounds like a once saved always saved... and though I may believe there is a permissive perimeter, plan B that God will accept in my life... I don't believe that my willful rebellion against God puts me in plan B territory... it puts me out of God's will all together... backslidden.
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ

The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 12:14 pm**

I agree basically with Clint on this.

Willful disobedience is the very definition of being out of the will of God.

Was the Prodigal Son in his loving father's 'permissive will' while he was wasting his substance with riotous living, ending up slopping hogs due to his stupid obstinance?

Sure, God allows LOTS of things to happen that are against His will (unless you're a Calvinist). And just as surely God is able to work all things together for good for those who love Him. Just because we may sin doesn't mean God no longer has a will for our life, it just means in that instance we fell short. God's will is that we get back on track (back in his will).

Of course this begs the bigger question, "What is God's will?"

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 12:20 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **2/9/12 12:24 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 12:27 pm**

One thing to keep in mind is that in the ancient Middle-Eastern culture a son could be disowned in extreme cases. In some cases, he could even be put to death.

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **2/9/12 1:33 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 1:43 pm**

Hillbilly,

Yes, I understand that most people see "God's perfect will" as some kind of unalterable blueprint, which if they in any way deviate from, can never be recovered. I just don't see the blueprint idea as scriptural or in any way helpful. The Father's perfect will for the prodigal son after all he had done was for redemption and restoration of the personal, loving relationship he had desired all along.

If he was like God the Father (and no doubt he was, as he ran to meet his son and fell on his neck and kissed him and then restored him with his ring, robe, and shoes) then I honestly can't imagine him ever holding the former prodigal's past indiscretions against him again. I also can't imagine the Father begrudging his beloved son now that he had been restored.

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2458 **2/9/12 1:46 pm**

I listened to a sermon called "There is no dot" a few years ago by James Macdonald and it completely changed my perspective on God's will. He basically said that most Christians spend their entire lives searching for that one little dot in our lives called "God's will". If we make a wrong decision, we have missed His will for our lives and could be out of His will for the rest of our lives.

His point was that there is no dot. God has laid out His divine will in His Word and as long as we still within the 4 walls of that Word, then we can do whatever the heck we want to. We can use the talents, gifts and abilities that he has given us and take risks...if we fail, we fail but we don't have to worry about "missing it".

At the same time, God does has specific callings and assignments for each of us and He'll nudge us in that direction but it's not something that He'll ever force on us.

Troy...

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **2/9/12 1:59 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 2:08 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **2/9/12 2:36 pm**

About preachers, we generally will always say wherever we are IS God's perfect will. I've been in some situations where I really did have to wonder though. I wouldn't say the preacher who had gone to a church he knew wasn't God's perfect will for him was necessarily unsaved. I would say he was incredibly stupid though, and that it would not go well for him as long as he knew he was not in the will of God.

Our human subjectivity has to enter into the equation too of course. Some are called, some are sent, and some just went, as they say.

Also there are times we know not what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit helps our infirmities, as Rom. 8 says.

Perfect-Permissive will of God?

Friendly Face Posts: 312 **2/10/12 2:20 am**

No.
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Yes I do

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 **2/10/12 3:19 am**

I believe the essence of the these terms have biblical merit. Not necessarily as regards salvation itself though. I don't believe one can use the "permissive will" concept to justify willful and/or persistent sin (even in the name of eternal security) and still be a Christian. I really don't think these terms apply in that area, at least they never have to me.

However, I know a man who was as a new believer was called to preach in his early 20's, but because of confusion, influence, and church politics by those near and dear around him, who instructed him, he was convinced he wasn't. He lived a faithful Christian life most of that time, and was used of God mightily in various ways, but was not walking in his calling. At least not until some 17 years later.

After accepting my call to preach at age 16 he was reawakened to the gift in him, and was stirred sufficiently until he finally threw off the bondage others had (however well intentioned) heaped on him, and finally accepted his call to preach. That man was and is my father.

I believe he was in Gods permissive will with regard to his calling, though still a Christian. I believe he moved into the perfect will of God once he finally accepted and submitted to that calling. So yes, I do believe in the perfect and permissive will of God.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **2/10/12 6:56 am**

Isn't this question really a corollary to the question, "Why does God allow evil"?

How much does God micromanage our lives?

Does foreknowledge necessitate fore-action? Or reaction?

Couldn't what we perceive as the concept of the "permissive will of God" simply be God exercising patience (greater than our own) until the day comes for Him to judge the world with justice through His Son?
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4804 **2/10/12 7:24 am**

FYI... If you follow this line of thinking, it's going to lead directly to Calvinism versus Armenianism..

Now........... GO! Laughing

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