 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 Why Word of Faith teaching is wrong 2 of 2 |
Rafael D Martinez |
We have sought to understand what the three central points of Faith theology actually teach. They are responsible for most, if not all, of the other doctrinal and practical concerns that riddle the Faith movement. While there may be much we can ask about these unique doctrines, one question towers above them all. All potential questions that can be raised concerning the movement simply pale in comparison to this one crucial question that must be explored: where does the Faith movement's bottom line lead us?
What we believe will always direct our actions and how we act will always affect our standing before God (2 Peter 2:20-22). In light of the ultimate end of all things, in full knowledge of the Bema Seat of Christ where "every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire," (1 Cor. 3:13), we must now plumb the depths of the bottom line of Faith teaching.
Where does it lead us? What are the other inevitable, logical conclusions drawn from consistent application of Faith principles? Let us now first examine what these Faith teachings lead us to believe about God, Christ and the Gospel, and let us then see the belief system it sets up will affect our lives.
The Lordship Of The Believer: Who's Really In Charge?
First of all, since God is limited to using unchangeable spiritual laws that govern the New Covenant, His will is then subject to the sovereign will of the “Faith person†and their own usage of the same laws. The mastery over homes, cities and nations now is ours entirely. Having the same authority of a pre-Fall Adam, they have absolute dominion in the earth, an authority whose will and desires are unlimited, and whose power to "get" them are also limitless. It is no wonder that the “little gods†teaching is presented as Christian doctrine instead of the heretical blasphemy it is.
Practically speaking, the Lordship of God in Christ by the Spirit is then made a highly qualified mystery constantly redefined in relationship to a very literal lordship of the believer. The will of God, it stands to reason, is actually the will of the Faith believer. Whatever the will of the Faith believer is can then be manifest as a divinely ordained birthright that guarantees "power to get wealth," among other things. Salvation is the dinner bell for the hungry King's Kid to come and feed, and he has learned to develop a choice appetite. And there have been few other Faith ministers with such intriguing tastes as the irrepressible Robert Tilton whose reinvention after his ministry implosion in the early 1990's still can be seen on the BET network
"Before any of these teachings will work for you, you need to learn who you are in Jesus Christ. When you were saved, through faith, God restored you into fellowship and harmony as an offspring of God, a child of the King. 'For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life (like a king) by one, Jesus Christ.' Romans 5:17. God also restored your authority through Jesus Christ. You now have the same authority Adam had before he sinned. You have dominion in the earth to guard it, cultivate it, and cause it to bring forth fruit. You can now rule your life as a king. When a man is king, he has authority over his realm; that means he has it under his control and can do whatever he chooses. .. There is nothing wrong with receiving things in this life as long as they line up with His will. (1)
The Cutting Edge Versus The Old School
Secondly, the choice supposedly offered by God between blessing and cursing under this "New Covenant" actually contributes to further division in an already fragmented Christian Church. Faith teachers advance the notion that suffering Christians facing physical infirmity or personal sorrows are wallowing in these tribulations due to their deficient spirituality. An undeniable gap between the “haves†and the “have nots†in Faith churches exists, regardless whether they choose to recognize it or not. There is an almost universal deference to those who “walk in victory†as manifest in their ownership of new cars, big homes and spiritual triumphs over sickness and struggle which sets up a spiritual caste system within Faith movement circles. If there are Christian people who aren’t enjoying divine health and wealth, then the suspicion is that they may be unspiritual, ignorant of "who they are in Christ," or even lost altogether. In all of my study of Faith publications and recorded media, in personal visits to Faith churches and in informal times with Faith Christians, that disturbing message gets reinforced again and again. I see it virtually everywhere I’ve gone where Faith teaching is firmly entrenched.
This has been responsible for stirring up Faith movement attitudes that can range from good-natured condescension to the shamelessly elitist. Hearing Faith disciples rail upon churches and Christians who don’t seem to enjoy the kind of “benefits under the covenant†that they do is one of the most singularly demeaning and insulting things one can hear. The pride and arrogance underlying this kind of “fellowship†is all too familiar and the judgmental presumption made by Faith teachers seeking to bolster their own “authority†smacks of religious abuse. Being in denominational fellowships - especially non-Charismatic / Pentecostal ones – is just one of the main targets of Faith movement demonization. Classical Pentecostal movements like the Church of God in Christ, the Foursquare Church, the Assemblies of God and the Church of God (Cleveland) are the butt end of self-serving barbs that harangue or rail upon them.
And what is so amazing is how many members of these fellowships so readily imbibe the questionable teachings that Faith teachers offer as the alternative to the "doctrines of men" they accuse denominational churches such as their own as having kept them in darkness with. A typical Faith description of those under such a sorrowful state of affairs rarely varies from this format: "Almost ten years ago, church usher John Jones and his wife Jackie, were denominational Christians living powerless, defeated Christian lives. Then one day, they heard Brother Hagin on the radio program 'Faith Seminar of the Air,' and their spirits were stirred by his teaching of the Word." etc. and etc. (2)
Spiritual Law Trumps The Almighty
Thirdly, spiritual laws requiring a "God kind of faith" logically negate the omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of God. I cannot too strongly overemphasize just how important this point is: if you are reading this work, I hope you come away with at least this one truly sobering consideration:
If God the Father is a "faith God" who must place his trust in spiritual forces and laws to accomplish his divine will, then there exists a greater power in the universe than God Himself. Copeland himself can't be any clearer as he expands upon these dubious claims:
We are creatures of the world of the spirit, and we need to know how to walk under the laws that govern this spiritual world instead of continuing to walk under the laws that govern the natural, physical world. When we learn the laws, rules and regulations that govern the world of the spirit, we will gain the knowledge of how to govern the world of the natural. ... God is a faith being. You are born of God. You are a faith being. God does not do anything outside of faith. WIth His faith living in you, you are to operate the same way (3).
This means that Kenneth Copeland's ministry crest, prominently displayed during his telecasts and bearing the ancient Christian confession "Jesus Is Lord" has it all wrong. It is inaccurate to call Him "Lord" if something else is stronger than He. Since He is a "faith God," the one true God cannot truly be Lord over all, since man can freely utilize these laws and "have whatsoever he saith" through "faith in his own faith."
This is not alarmist rhetoric – it is the logical conclusion to the self-exalting character of this profoundly warped doctrine. It is what leads many Faith ministers to make the kinds of questionable, unbiblical and even outrageous declarations they have been known to make about the Godhead, the Trinity and the nature of God Himself. What is so fascinating to me, years after having known what this blasphemous conclusion of Faith teaching asserts, that there are so many Faith Christians completely oblivious to this. What's even more gripping is the realization that there are so many of them who embrace the "little gods" heresy because at some subconscious level they won't admit to themselves that they actually see where it has led them. We will discuss this at length in our next article about the God of Faith theology.
Where The Bottom Line Of Faith Teaching Leads The Believer
In view of these profoundly troubling concepts, what then are the implications for Christian living? What would happen to the young believer who zealously and diligently wants to grow in the Lord but chooses innocently enough to faithfully applying themselves to the traditions of Faith teaching?
Their lifestyle will be subject to the never ending tensions that their personal application of Faith teaching to their own lives would create. They won't recognize that they're running on a Faith teaching treadmill shaped to fit their individual spiritual preferences which will keep them too preoccupied, distracted and engaged to consider what they are doing. To spiritually achieve and succeed, their triumph over all negative circumstances by faith in one's faith is necessary, since spiritual maturity is achieved when they are able to rule and reign with unquestioned authority over their own personal life and circumstances. The timeless emphasis of Christian discipleship that is based upon personal self-denial and attention to Christian holiness is then skewed toward personal gain and benefit. Christian servanthood then becomes a difficult concept to aspire to - however lauded - when development of the "overcomer" and their spiritual supremacy becomes paramount (1 Co. 14:36-37). Failure to "overcome" is almost sinful, subtly unspiritual, and always symptomatic of weak faith.
You have no more business saying words of doubt than saying curse words. That's the devil's language. Quit talking the devil's language and start talking God's language. God is a faith God. We are faith children of a faith God (4).
Spiritual growth, therefore, comes in the development of one's positive confession that starves doubt and feed faith. The Faith believer must engage in a never ending series of motivational experiences to do this, such an endless confession of self-affirmations labelled as "words of faith" that are written to reinforce Faith teachings that assure absolute victory over all circumstances (Click here to read a typical sample of these confessions as a PDF file). Other ways this can be done is through through "seed faith," the freewill offerings vowed to various ministries, or more commonly, those continual audible confession of faith-filled words that will release the “force†of faith to create blessings for those seeking them.
They will then be encouraged to ardently pursue personal direction for that objective through a "word from the Lord" they're led to believe comes from direct revelation through some highly anointed servant of God. Scripture becomes an insufficient guide to their spiritual life, much less any sound Biblical teaching they might hear from an "ordinary" pastor's preaching. This imbalanced diet of Faith teaching centered almost exclusively on its flawed views of faith and the Christian life is then viewed as the only truly nourishing spiritual food of which the believer can partake that will give them strength for their journey as John Avanzini so glibly claims with his own take on John 10:10:
.. our God and King declares that the basis of His Kingdom is abundance! He plainly says: '... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly' (Jn. 10:10b). You see, the lifestyle God has chosen for us is His abundance. This abundant lifestyle is the type of a breakthrough that you are heading for if you do not let the devil contain you in your current strata of income .. to get you away from knowing the truth of God's Word that I am trying to teach you." (5).
With this kind of smoothly phrased compulsion, Faith people will criss-cross the nation moving from conference to campmeeting to convention to intensively hearken to every precept and proverb uttered by other Faith teachers themselves. This has fed the Faith movement's cottage industry of media ministry to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars of tithing, offering and outright media purchases. They will fill arenas and churches weekly around the world in a sincere effort to attain personal revelation knowledge, filling their homes with all of the books, DVD's and teaching courses their favorite teachers produce to further their never ending faith-building chase.
This directly contributes to an inordinate infatuation with spiritual experiences quickly passed off as spiritual guidance that will spiritually "perfect" them. Despite the protests of many to the contrary, this helps explain why Faith Charismatics and Pentecostals engage themselves in an ardent search for signs and wonders, instead of the reverse (Mark 16:17) being true for New Testament believers. Along the way, an obsession with exposing and expunging demons responsible for a host of ills (such as spirits of accidents, worry, and overweight) usually becomes part of their belief system. Demons literally do dwell behind every bush, and as Faith teacher Norvel Hayes once said, there are actually several of them lurking there. Personal worship then becomes part of a "faith formula" to curry a personal piety and perspective into the supernatural world to discern and fend off spiritual attack and defeat through a variety of diverse and strange methods. An openness to Biblical spiritual giftings such as the baptism with the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, and words of wisdom and knowledge then becomes an effort to prop up tottering and unstable beliefs instead of accepting them as divine enduements of power for truly anointed Christian ministry.
Sadly, this manner of lifestyle inevitably will be threatened with the temptation to pursue self-centered blessing as a "King's Kid," concerned with the proverbial "us four and no more." And this then emboldens many misguided believers to reject the counsel of Christian authority figures - like their own pastors - for the sake of spiritual self-determination. The twisted logic here in some extreme cases has led many into personal instability and, worse of all, even terribly warped false teachings that drive them to create aberrant churches as deceptive and dangerous as many cultic movements (6).
This twisting of Christian faith, facilitated by Word of Faith teaching, is what I call pneuma-narcissism, an obsessive spiritual self-centeredness that completely undermines Christian growth and maturity. It leads them to build their lives upon sandy foundations of shifting moods, deceptively fickle feelings and unrealistic expectations completely out of touch with Biblical and literal reality. The Christian who founds his life upon that kind of morass, should they fail to possess their confession and achieve their divine health and wealth is then told by Faith teachers to try harder, confess more, sow more seeds. Click here to view by video how shameless Faith teachers will be as they compel "Faith people" to "sow for a harvest". And if there is no "breakthrough", they will then become spiritually frustrated, disheartened and then finally spiritually burnt out people who have no defense against the lure of their sinful past and the world itself - stumbling over Faith fables focused upon "promises of God" that He has never made.
With a personal foundation built upon the shaky traditions of Faith teaching and not the solid Word of God itself that establishes individually what real faith actually is, the Faith believer's convictions and personal commitments quickly wither, then crumble completely under the fires of living in a fallen, sinful world where bad things happen to good people. The rains that Jesus said will fall upon the just and the unjust and the hot suns arising to beat upon both evil and good people then become too much for them to handle (Matthew 5:45). I and many other Pentecostal and Christian ministers have beheld this again and again in the lives of too many believers, watching them stumble under trial when their Faith "confession" didn't bring "possession" and who, offended, turned back into the world they had just escaped from.
The Clear And Present Danger Of Faith Teaching To The Christian Life
For those who persevere in their faith walk in Faith churches, the challenges are still very real. Men and women pointed to the person of Christ and faith in his shed blood for salvation in the Faith movement, in spite of the gaping snares of Faith teaching, somehow do receive ministry that brings them to faith, and in many cases, maturity in Christ. Too many others among them in their fellowships, however, are being fed upon an imbalanced Faith diet that both poisons and stunts them in their spiritual growth. The gospel of Christ is at once proclaimed in their evangelistic efforts, then overturned through the long-term confusion that new converts may be confronted with as they are discipled. Those won to Christ through many charismatic and Pentecostal Christians holding to Faith teachings are then stunted by the "meat of the Word," that is pressed upon them by these same Christians who will vouch for it's power to edify. Hence, the potential for skewed spiritual life, with it's subsequent manifestation of dysfunctional (some might also add accurately sinful) direction in one's ordinary day to day life is enormous when Faith teachings are applied to the letter.
The Faith movement is not unlike cultic groups who substitute grace for works in the propagating of their own "other gospels," in that it has been steered into accepting unbiblical and false doctrines and distinctions. I realize that this hot button issue has been a very big bone of contention in this controversy, but I have come to the reluctant conclusion that this assertion is not only defensible, but true. Saying this certainly isn't a career move for a young Pentecostal minister assaying to someday become a Church of God pastor, but it must be said, and loudly. Where the grace of God has begun, the works of religious flesh attempt to finish (Gal. 3:3). If followed consistently, the "rudiments of the world" (Col. 2:8) found in the gospel according to the Word of Faith movement effectively nullify the power of the Good News to bring spiritual wholeness to the believer. The sad truth of the matter is that the Faith movement does indeed follow chilling parallels with cultic systems of thought, with its belief in the divinely inspired inerrancy of it's "prosperity gospel," the unquestioning acceptance of their doctrine within a tightly knit community of people who exalt its subtly authoritarian teachers, and it's view that "Word people" currently hold to the only true perspective on Christianity. These errors are hardly any different then the prideful self-aggrandizing done by the Unification and Mormon churches, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the cultic Remnant Fellowship. Subtle forms of spiritual abuse stemming from the dictates of control-oriented Faith movement "leadership" supplied by a "five-fold ministry" will have impacted thousands of lives.
Perhaps the most destructive error of the Faith movement which illustrates this is the spiritual compartmentalization within the hearts and minds of many "Faith people" that is forced upon them. This loaded word is perhaps more understandable when defined by the Scriptural term of doublemindedness mentioned in the book of James (1:8 and 4:8). Here, doublemindedness is referring to the action taken by Faith believers when confronted simultaneously by the differences between orthodox Christian and Faith teaching - or even critical reason and Faith teaching. The firm establishment of a spiritually and psychologically damaging denial mindset, a denial of reality, has been observed in many who have taken up Faith teaching.
When confronted with a situation demanding a decision for action that can follow Faith teaching principles or those of fundamental Christian practice or common sense, far too many zealous and sincere Christians have chosen the primrose path of "the believer's authority." In so doing, they brought untold woe upon themselves and others as they attempted to continue living one way in full knowledge of a better one, convinced their way is "God's way." And when their failure to "get the victory" as they stand on Faith teaching, the "encouragement" they can expect from their "anointed" leaders is an exercise of finger pointing, telling them they didn't have "real faith."
In fact, Faith teachers, when confronted by their disciples with plain questions as to why they experienced tragedy and sorrows their "possession confessions" didn't forestall end up being effectively rebuked for not having enough faith! Click here to view a depressingly common example of this in a video of such "encouragement" that a Faith teacher delivered on TBN, at TBN founder Paul Crouch's behest, in 1993 to Faith Christians struggling with this painful reality in their lives in what is surely one of the most insulting, condescending and pompously self-justifying ramblings I've ever heard uttered in the name of God. Another tragic example of how bad teaching leads to misguided faith and bad practice will be seen in the tragic choices made by Christians who thought they were hearing from God from "generals."
In short, this doublemindedness is a literal compartmentalization, a state of mind in which an individual can hold two contradictory beliefs simultaneously by "shelving" one when unneeded, and pulling down the other when necessity demands its use (such as asserting one's divine health while rebuking a "spirit of colds", taking cold medicine to break a fever and fighting down a fit of sneezing). It leads Faith believers to adopt an unbalanced situational approach to life as they decide which of the two belief systems to use in a given moment when confronted by life's many problems and challenges. We know of a Charismatic acquaintance was told by her little girl that she wasn't feeling well and was immediately rebuked by her mother for speaking such a negative thing. Click here to view a PDF file containing an excerpt from a Kenneth Copeland Ministry comic book, produced for children, that reinforces this unbelievably misguided principle in their impressionable minds. What sort of confusion does that impress upon children who are consistently held to such a bizarre standard of grotesque relativity? It will be the same sort of inner mental warping that their Faith parents struggle silently to reconcile to themselves, only they are being conditioned to accept as a matter of course that the guilt, inner struggle, and fear of failure this stirs within them is a spiritual deficiency they need to work harder to put behind them. The influence of Faith dogma is therefore responsible as well for much of this tragedy in the lives of the zealous and sincere when it is seen.
There are many things in life that people can experience the loss of, but, as one proverb well stated, take a man's faith away from him and you will surely kill him. The teachings of the Word of Faith movement about faith itself, and the twisting of simple trust in the promises of God into a works-oriented paroxysm of hyperactive self-motivation, effectively does just that. Christian researcher Stephen Cannon describes the inevitable inner erosion of those who addict themselves to Faith teaching: "After all the teaching, confessing and testifying, reality begins to rear it's ugly head. Common human suffering teaches Word-Faith adherents that their system just doesn't work!" (7). Faith in God becomes a wearying exercise of positive confessions and a rigid, smothering attempt to selectively suspend human rationality by the denial of the unpleasant aspects of one's personal existence and reality. Only God alone knows how many people in the movement have repeated the error of the Galatians that Paul sadly chides them for:
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain? (Gal. 3:3-4)
How many "Word people" have joyously met Jesus and then found all of His promises bound up in a mechanism of human tradition that demanded them to approach him by becoming a cog in it's works? Only God alone how many have fell by the wayside, beaten and crushed. God forgive us for our proud blindness!
And we haven't begun to spend any time discussing the blatantly extravagant lifestyles lived by many Faith teachers, who having thrown whatever pretense of "propriety" to the winds they may have had, indulge themselves in millions of dollars of creature comforts from private jets to multimillion dollar homes, from customized Land Rovers to closets full of clothing purchased in junkets to New York City and Rodeo Drive. We'll not overstate the obvious.
Word of Faith teachings on the Gospel exalt human pride and deify man, creating the pneuma-narcissism that centers the believer's attentions on their own spiritual welfare. They don't come close to establishing what the Biblical basis for faith is and instead teach that God is subject to spiritual laws that any Christian with the right thinking can put into "operation" to make the supernatural work for them. The gospel according to Faith teachers contains an inexplicable mixture of Biblical truth and unbiblical assumptions centered around a destructive premise of "faith in your faith" that I cannot describe as anything else but Charismatic and Pentecostal witchcraft. That is one Pentecostal's perspective.
Unfortunately, even this degraded version of the Christian faith is not the most grievous error that those claiming the "God kind of faith" as a normative part of their Christian life can fall into. In our next article, we will have to confront and grapple with what is surely the most troubling and dangerous dimension of the Faith movement - it's unbiblical view of who God is and what the consequences would be in bowing their knee to the "god" of Faith teaching.
<>
Now let's see if Aaron/Him/Whoever/That Fella actually will study. I hope Casey don't read this, it might give him flashbacks. Their vows that they want to reason are never convincing. So cut and pasting my own writing and research is much easier.
The next article is on the Spiritwatch site at http://spiritwatch.org/firefaith4.htm and concluded at http://spiritwatch.org/firefaith5.htm
This is all I'm going to say on this here.
_________________
www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
1/18/18 4:55 pm
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| Re: OTCP 2... |
Aaron Scott |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | OTCP, since your paper is too long to address in a single sitting, I will deal with it a piece at a time. NOTE: While I do not hold most of the positions you speak to, I am simply trying to point out that the scriptures can legitimately lead someone to draw the conclusions that WOFers hold. That is, they are not, as you imply, completely off-the-wall positions. There IS reason enough (even if we feel we have BETTER reasons for our position, etc.) to hold most or all of the positions you mentions. So let's begin....
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | WOF theology posits that: First, that Christ was re-created on the cross from a sinless deity to a Satanic being. Second, that redemption was secured not on the cross but in hell. Third, that Jesus was reborn (or born again) in hell. And finally, that Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who are born again are likewise “reincarnated.â€
If you are made sin, are you like God? Now, you and I see this as a symbolic matter, but it is not a far leap to suppose that, if Jesus was made sin, then He clearly could not have God's nature since, by definition, God has no sin. So we see that the WOF, even if we think them wrong, are not entirely without a basis for believing what they believe (I am assuming you are being absolutely upfront about what they believe).
Is it a out of the question to suppose that if Jesus took our place on the cross, took our place in death, then He also took our place in hell? Besides, Peter's Pentecost sermon plainly says Jesus went to hell. It is one thing to argue that the WOF have misunderstood matters. It is another thing entirely to act as if they have ZERO reason for believing as they do.
I have not heard of the "reincarnation" thing you speak of, but as Brad pointed out elsewhere, Jesus IS the FIRSTBORN from the dead. That clearly provides adequate support to hold that Jesus was made anew in some way (and He was--He did not have a glorified body when He died).
I. Re-Creation on the Cross
Kenneth Hagin writes that spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature.
Yes, I think we ALL agree with that. After all, anyone that is spiritually dead does NOT have God's nature, do they? And if you don't have God's nature, whose nature do you have?
You and I both know that Jesus is God. And AS God, He cannot have a devilish nature. In fact, as God, He cannot even be tempted with evil! And yet Jesus WAS tempted with evil (the temptation to worship Satan in return for the kingdoms of the world). This was a function of the flesh which He inhabited--"yet without sin." But the fact that Jesus was made sin for us puts a different spin on it. Now, you and I see it as a symbolic placement of sin--that is, that He was still utterly pure in God's sight, etc. But how many sermons have you heard where someone claimed that the reason Jesus thought God had forsaken Him was because God could not look upon sin (which Jesus had became)? Yep, plenty of times.
So, it is not an unreasonable stretch to claim that when Jesus became sin, that at least the part of Him that was human, had a different nature.
Answer this question: Did Jesus have a human spirit? If not, then as Gregory of Nanzianus argued (I paraphrase), "What He did not assume is not saved." That is, our flesh is saved because He had human flesh, etc....
Did Jesus have a human spirit or a divine one? Now, I argue that He had BOTH. After all, something besides body parts had to dread the cross and ask for the cup to pass, and I think that was His human spirit. At the same time, if there is NOTHING about Him that is divine, then He is not God, is He?
So, it's not hard to reason that Jesus' human nature, upon His becoming sin for us, was no longer godly. Bear in mind that I am not trying to PROVE this is the case (since I likely haven't given it more than 10 minutes thought in my decades). I am simply pointing out that we (and by "we" I mean "you") cannot blithely dismiss WOF doctrine and at the same time be intellectually honest.
A. Destructive Assertion
Before examining the destructive notion that Christ was re-created on the
cross, let me offer a deï¬nition of atonement. Simply put, the atonement means that Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death upon the cross, dealt completely with the problem of sin. The Cross stands at the center of history, so our understanding of the atonement is central to the faith.
Virtually every cult denies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through the sinless sacrifice of Christ upon the cross.
The Bible clearly states that one’s eternal salvation rests on what one personally believes about the blood atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross.
No, the cross is NOT the end all of everything Christian. It is absolutely essential and central, BUT if Jesus had died on the cross, BUT NOT ROSE AGAIN, then we could easily write Him off as just another good man, great teacher, prophet, etc.
At the same time, the resurrection is not the end all, either. There is no resurrection without the cross.
It's not the cross or the resurrection that are the center: IT IS JESUS.
I mean, when you get down to it, there's no cross without the manger. And the manger means nothing without the cross. You get the idea.
Now, like you, I preach the cross (Jesus and Him crucified). There had to be shedding of blood, etc.
Does the WOF believe that we are saved by works? I've never heard that said by them, but then again, I don't study them. But you raised the point as if they deny salvation by grace.
Kenneth Copeland writes that in a conversation with Jesus, he was told that Jesus became a sign of Satan when He hung upon the cross. “Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? And the Lord said, “Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.â€
That actually makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, why would the very thing that was killing them be what Moses lifted up in the wilderness? And since sin is what destroys mankind, it makes a very good analogy that Jesus, having become sin, is lifted up in order to save us from our sins.
Jesus could have used any number of analogies to the cross...but He used the one about Moses holding up the serpent in the wilderness. Why? I think Copeland makes a fair point--and that is all I am trying to demonstrate. I am NOT trying to prove he or they are right...just that you cannot be fair minded and just out-of-hand reject everything they say because you don't like some of the things they believe.
How does such a claim align with Scripture? It doesn’t. In the Old Testament, whenever anyone committed an offense or sin, a sacriï¬ce called a sin offering was required in order to “cover†the transgression. The offering had to be “without defect†(Leviticus 4:3).
Flawed animals were deemed unacceptable for sacrifice (Deut. 15:21). Since such sacrifices foreshadow Christ’s ultimate sacrifice on the cross, we know that Christ was offered without spot or blemish, and as such, could not have become one in nature with Satan. 1 Peter 1:19 speaks of, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.â€
Guess what? The divine part of Jesus couldn't die, could it? So, tell me, did Jesus die for us or not? OF COURSE. But if so, then what part of Jesus DID die? That's right: The human part of Jesus. Jesus is, was, and will always be sinless in that He is God. But the human part of Him was hungry, weary, thirsty, tempted. THAT part of Him, if made sin, could certainly be held to be unlike God at that point. Doesn't mean you and I accept it, just that the WOF is not without cause for believing it as they do.
B. Distorting the Text
Faith teachers distort the text to support their pet theories. II Corinthians 5:21 is a case in point, where Paul writes, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us.†Here they argue that Jesus became a satanic being on the
cross. But is this really what the apostle had in mind? No!
To interpret this passage as saying that Christ was transformed into sin is to strip the Savior of His personal being and reduce Him to a mere abstraction.
The Levitical concepts of imputation and substitution are the backdrop for Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus did not literally become sin or a sinner, the sin of humankind was imputed to him.
Fine. We are virtually on the same page. But that is not the only way to interpret the passage, is it? The WOF, even though we might disagree with them, are not exactly pulling this stuff out of thin air, are they? They DO have some reason for believing it. And the fact that they love Jesus, seek to please Him, seek to worship Him in spirit and in truth, etc., ought to perhaps give us just a little bit of caution in how we paint them as (at least in your case) absolute heretics, etc.
This will come as a shock to some, but a heretic is NOT someone who happens to disagree with you about some element of scripture. More is required. If that former were the case, then Baptists and everyone but pretty much me and the Church of God of 1960, is a heretic.
No, a heretic is someone who espouses things that are CLEARLY at odds with the scripture. And/or that will CLEARLY lead one away from Christ, to hell, etc. That is, heresy MUST mean more than simple disagreement. Otherwise, I expect you, OTCP, to claim that Baptists, Methodists, etc. are all heretics (and use your real name if you believe it that strongly).
God made Him sin, not in the sense of being a personal sinner, but the Father made His innocent Son the object of His wrath and judgment, for our sakes. Through Christ on the cross the sin of the world is judged and
taken away.
You and I agree that it is symbolic. But it is also that case that it could be interpreted in another way, is it not? That the flesh part of Jesus became sin, etc.
For instance, footwashing is interpreted by those in the Church of God as a command to literally wash one another's feet. But it is perfectly fair--and I have to admit, probably correct--to hold that it is a symbolic point. The scriptures allow enough leeway to permit one to interpret "Jesus became sin" both literally and symbolically. You and I believe it symbolically; others take it literally.
MORE LATER.
Faith adherents also cite Numbers 2l:8-9 and John 3:14 to prove that Jesus became a sinner on the cross. Since Jesus was “lifted up†on the cross as Moses “lifted up†the bronze serpent in the desert, He have taken on the nature of Satan, symbolized by the serpent.
As I told you in the beginning, there is no CLEAR refutation of WOF doctrine. Now, we can claim that we are rightly dividing the Word and they are not, but what we can't claim is there is ZERO basis for their belief.
Oh, we found a verse that is contrary to what they believe? They have plenty that align with what they believe. I mean, consider that just because there are plenty of verses that say that Jesus has a God ("to My God and your God, etc."), that hasn't stopped us embracing the trinity, has it?
Again, I am NOT trying to prove they are right. I am simply pointing out that we can dismiss them as crazies, but they do have some basis for believing as they do, even if we don't like it.
However, these verses address the manner in which he died, that he was lifted up on an instrument of death.
I believe you are incorrect. There are hundreds of OTHER ways, surely, that Jesus could have indicated that he would be lifted up on the cross to die. He could have spoken of flags being lifted up. He could have used many examples--He certainly didn't HAVE to use a Biblical example.
It seems certain that He was mentioning Moses and the serpent to make a point. If it's just about being "lifted up," there are, again, myriad ways of doing that. And for that matter, the snake didn't "die" on the pole that Moses lifted up (it wasn't even alive, for that matter).
Now, did Jesus mention it to assert what the WOFers say? I don't know. And neither do you. What we do know is that it seems a fair take from the scripture, even if you and I may think it is an incorrect interpretation.
It is clear that Christ’s re-creation on the cross has no scriptural basis.
Apparently, this is a somewhat esoteric part of WOF doctrine, because while someone may have stated it, it does not seem to be emphasized (in my limited experience).
But if other areas are WOF doctrine are any indication, it is probably also the case that this point does have at least some scriptural basis. Maybe not to our liking, but so far, you have not indicated anything that seems to be a completely unreasonable take on scripture...and that was what you were aiming for, right?
C. Describing the Questions
Numerous passages affirm that our sins were dealt with “through the sacriï¬ce of the body of Jesus Christ once for all†(Hebrews 10:10; cf. Romans 7:4; Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 4:1).
And there are also plenty that state that at least part of what happens for us was wrought by the resurrection.
(1 Corinthians 15:19 KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
That passage makes it clear, it seems, that without the resurrection, there's not much to it all. In fact, Paul says we are of all men most miserable.
(Romans 4:25 KJV) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
NO JUSTIFICATION WITHOUT THE RESURRECTION, IT APPEARS.
(Romans 10:9 KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
SEE? IT'S ALL IMPORTANT.
This raises three questions for the Faith movement’s view of the atonement.
First, why is there no explicit mention of Christ’s “spiritual†death—while
the Bible is replete with details of the fact and significance of His physical
death—if it was His spiritual death that did away with the curse?
Would it not be reasonable to argue that, if you believe that Jesus became sin in the most literal way, that He HAD to have died spiritually, since sin makes you spiritually dead? Sure! Once again, it may not be OUR take, but it's not like they have no merit at all to their doctrine (which seems to be what you repeatedly claim).
Second, why does the Bible place so much emphasis on Christ’s physical
death on the cross—to the exclusion of His alleged spiritual death—if His physical death was not the factor that eradicated sin?
See the above point. If you are taking Jesus becoming sin LITERALLY, it would seem you have no option but to agree that He died spiritually, sin made us all dead spiritually.
Third, why is it that Christ Himself told us to remember the sacrifice He
made with His body and blood (both of which are essentially physical), while
saying nothing about any spiritual sacrifice (cf. Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians
1 1:24-26)?
No WOF person I've heard has ever indicated that the cross was not an essential of salvation. But since they believe that Jesus LITERALLY became sin (perhaps an analogy to the Catholic believe that the host becomes the literal body and blood of Jesus), they would just have to say, "What? You don't believe that Jesus REALLY became sin???"
The answer is simple, the biblical evidence indicates that Jesus did not die spiritually in the faith sense. Rather, His physical death paid the price for humanity’s sin. Jesus said, “This is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. (1 Corinthians 11:24-26)
It was on the cross that we were pardoned through Christ’s broken body and shed blood—not through some mythological spiritual death.
(Acts 2:27 KJV) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Was Jesus' body in hell? No. Why would a soul go to hell (and apparently need the Father to not leave Him in hell) unless it is spiritually dead?
Now, you and I can likely think of a number of good comebacks. But the goal was to show CLEARLY that the WOF were wrong--in their interpretation and, as a consequence, their doctrine. So far, these understanding seem to be based on very scriptural notions--i.e., if you believe Jesus was made sin (according to scripture) AND His soul went to hell (according to scripture) and sinful souls are spiritually dead (according to scripture), the leap is not utterly unjustified.
The error that Christ became a sinner upon the cross inevitably leads to the
further error that His torment upon Calvary’s cross was insufficient to atone for the sins of humankind.
Yet, the WOF DOES believe that we are saved through the blood of Jesus. They CLEARLY believe Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was essential to salvation. The CLEARLY do not believe in a works-based salvation. Your argument perhaps needs to focus on in just what way Jesus became sin. They take it literally, but you obviously did not.
II. Redemption in Hell
Fred Price, “Do you think that the punishment tor our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated
from God . . . Satan and all the demons of hell…dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence.
This makes complete sense, even if I don't agree that He was "dragged" to hell. We know He was there...by why? Was He there to preach to souls that were already damned?
We know that the wages of sin is death (physical and spiritual), yet God laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
(Isaiah 53:6 KJV) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
A. Inadequacy of the Cross
In historical orthodox theology the end of the atonement took place upon the cross. In faith theology the cross was only the beginning.
Well, it WAS on the beginning. Without the accompanying resurrection, it would have had no meaning for us.
Joyce Meyer is emphatic in saying: “You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.â€
Again, if you literally believe that Jesus was made sin, then you believe that He must have been spiritually dead...and you certainly don't go to heaven if you're spiritually dead. Not my belief, but we are looking for a silver bullet to take down the WOF. So far, there has not been anything conclusive. They do have a right to interpret literally. If we don't like their conclusions, fine; but let's not act like they have zero Bible for what they believe.
Joel Osteen states that in hell “the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. For three days Jesus fought with the enemy. It was the battle of the ages.â€
Hyperbole. But we do know that Jesus went to hell.
(Acts 2:31 KJV) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
PERHAPS MORE LATER. In the meantime, search for scriptures that prove their literal take is utterly without merit.
Yet, it was on the cross that Jesus said, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit†(Luke 23:46; cf. John 19:30).
Kenneth Copeland is likewise emphatic: “When Jesus cried, ‘lt is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption.â€
Paul Billheimer in his book Destined for the Throne, “In hell Jesus was at Satan’s mercy. [l]t was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only His physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to “descend†into hell…Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner.â€
B. Twisting of Texts
Two passages in particular are used to support the idea of redemption in hell. First, in Matthew 12:40, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.†(Matthew 12:40). Jesus is clearly alluding to His burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. There is not even a hint in the context that Jesus would experience three days and three nights of mortal combat with the forces of darkness.
Second, in Ephesians 4:9-10, “What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.†Far from demonstrating that our Lord was incarcerated in hell, this passage references Christ’s incarnation on earth.
Paul writes in Colossians 2:15 that Jesus “disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.â€
Yet, Joyce Meyer declares that Jesus “was in the grave three days. During that time, He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go because of our sin. He paid the price there.â€
The problem is that it was on the cross that Jesus said, “It is finished.†It literally means “It is paid; the debt has been paid in full.â€
III. Rebirth in Hell
Creflo Dollar writes, “Often, in the midst of our religious views of Jesus, we forget that He was actually the first person to ever become born again.â€
According to Charles Capps, it was this pivotal event of Jesus becoming born again…The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of hell.â€
A. Doctrinal Perversion
The idea of a born-again Jesus is foreign to “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.â€
l Peter 3:18 states that Jesus “Was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.†This is hardly a commentary on Christ’s spiritual rebirth. In fact, the verse highlights the reality that Christ’s sacrifice was physical, without the slightest reference to spiritual death.
Christ’s body was left hanging on the cross the moment he surrendered his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). In other words, it was the parting of His spirit that marked Jesus’ “death in the body.â€
B. Revelation Knowledge
Since there is no scriptural support for the redemption in hell position, Faith teachers appeal to revelation knowledge.
Benny Hinn states, “if Jesus was not reborn spiritually, we ourselves have no hope of being born again: The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth—it’s just heavy right now on me… Do you know what the word “begotten†means? It means reborn. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was born again.â€
C. Significance of Begotten
But, does the term “begotten†mean “born-again?†Once again, the answer is no. The term “begotten†in this context simply means “born,†and is in no way synonymous with the word “reborn.â€
The biblical concept of being “reborn†(cf. John 3:3) applies uniquely to sinful humankind, never to the sinless Son of God. John 1:14 speciï¬cally refers to Jesus as “the only begotten from the Father†(NASB). Such a person has no need to be born again, for He is, always has been, and ever will be undiminished deity (John 1:1).
Where did such a teaching originate? It has no biblical basis. The only conceivable reason for concocting such a belief is to validate the faulty belief that Jesus became a sinner on the cross—and as such had to be born again.
IV. Reincarnation
Kenneth Hagin writes, “Every man who has been born again is an incarnation. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus.â€
The reincarnation of Christ is arguably the greatest of all atonement atrocities. According to Faith theology, Jesus came in flesh as merely a man. On the cross He was reincarnated as a satanic being. In hell he was
reincarnated once again from demonic to divine.
TBN founder Paul Crouch writes, “That is when His divinity returned.†To say that Jesus’ “divinity returned†presumes that there was a point when Christ was no longer God. But such assertion is unbiblical (Philippians 2:6; cf Hebrews 13:8).
A. Insurmountable Obstacles
At least three obstacles invalidate the idea of reincarnation.
First, one can only be incarnated if one existed prior to having a body. While preexistence is taught among the cults, it is foreign to the kingdom of Christ.
Second, to suggest that we are as much an incarnation as was Jesus is to place humankind on par with God. Third, if “Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself,†we would inhabit a polytheistic planet.
B. Error Begets Error
Creflo Dollar writes, “The day that Jesus was resurrected He became the first begotten Son of God—born again from spiritual death to life.â€
According to Benny Hinn, “you [in your present incarnation] are a little god …a little messiah walking on earth.â€
V. The Biblical Definition of the Atonement
The atonement is understood primarily as the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus that makes salvation for humankind possible. As such, the atonement is primarily soteriological in its intent and scope.
A. Biblical Basis
Throughout the New Testament, Christ is consistently presented as having borne the sin of humankind on the cross.
B. Theological Assessment
There are several themes upon which the atonement is understood:
1) Christ was the perfect sinless sacrifice
2) Christ paid the penalty for sin
3) Christ established a new covenant
4) Christ won the victory over all enemies at the cross, not in hell
Such references clearly indicate that the primary essence of the atonement is soteriological. |
|
|
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/18/18 9:16 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron, I posted earlier and stated that I had given a scriptural challenge to woffie error. My lengthy post is self-explanatory. Given the history of our interaction, you know where I stand. Aint gonna keep bickerin back an forth with ya over whats plainly stated |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/18/18 9:48 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Aaron, I posted earlier and stated that I had given a scriptural challenge to woffie error. My lengthy post is self-explanatory. Given the history of our interaction, you know where I stand. Aint gonna keep bickerin back an forth with ya over whats plainly stated |
As is plain from what I have written, I am not at all arguing FOR the WOF position. What I AM arguing is that neither you, me, nor anyone else, has the scriptural firepower to show they the WOF are clearly and undeniably wrong.
In brief, it is a matter of interpretation. That is, they DO have enough scriptural support to believe what they believe. You and I may not like what they believe, may think they have interpreted the scripture incorrectly, may think they are not rightly dividing the Word, but that does not prove they are wrong.
We all have reasons for what we believe. I know what you believe--you have presented it very well. But because you regularly criticize the WOF, one would think that you have OVERWHELMING proof that they are wrong. But you don't (for that matter, I don't have OVERWHELMING proof that YOU are wrong--and, in fact, I tend to be more in alignment with you than the WOF on these somewhat controversial beliefs that you have listed--and that I assume are indeed standard WOF theology). All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. These may be valid...or they may not be.
If the WOF was claiming that Jesus didn't die on the cross, we have silver bullet proof that they are wrong.
If they denied that Jesus would return, the same.
If they denied that anyone was going to hell, we'd have plenty of scriptural proof that the could not overcome.
When we can't do that for these other positions, we may continue to disagree with them, but if we claim they are wrong, we have to preface it with "in my opinion," because we are unable to definitively show that they have no basis for what they believe. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/19/18 5:57 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: OTCP... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. |
Let that sink in real good. Is there any point where we submit to any authority other than "our own"? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
1/19/18 9:06 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. |
Let that sink in real good. Is there any point where we submit to any authority other than "our own"? |
Works out the same way. That is, if you don't like what the POPE says, you go with what another church has to offer. If you don't agree with your local pastor's take on a matter, you are free to disagree.
Now, you can disagree and be DEAD WRONG. But you can disagree anyway.
And you can even AGREE and be DEAD WRONG.
We are not called to defend orthodoxy. We are called to the TRUTH. And if and when we believe orthodoxy is out of line, we speak to it. Consider that the Pharisees were so bound up in their orthodoxy that they could not accept Jesus.
I absolutely believe in the authority of the church and pastors, etc. But our own denomination was founded on freedom of conscience, and probably because the founders were hit at so hard by the established churches that denounced their beliefs. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/19/18 11:36 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: OTCP... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | What I AM arguing is that neither you, me, nor anyone else, has the scriptural firepower to show they the WOF are clearly and undeniably wrong. |
At air is a mite hilarious, Aaron. Son, if at was true then em apostle boys wasted their time in writin the New Testament. All a feller needs is a good Bible (not a Dake Bible), good sense, good thinkin skills, an the ability to stand on truth. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/19/18 12:21 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Dave Dorsey |
And I know that some would label me a Pharisee
Because today the only heresy is saying that there's heresy:
"How dare they be specific and drop some clarity
On the popularity of the gospel of Prosperity"
- Shai Linne |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/19/18 12:36 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: OTCP... |
bradfreeman |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. |
Let that sink in real good. Is there any point where we submit to any authority other than "our own"? |
OK. If Aaron's statement isn't true, all you have is someone else's beliefs, opinions, interpretations and traditions.  Whose? Where is the Holy Spirit in your equation?
You have to own your own faith...and we all do. We all believe something.
Submission, properly understood, simply means letting someone else have a voice to influence your beliefs, opinions, interpretations and tradition and esteeming them above yourself. Submission (valuing and respecting others) flows out of relationships, not simple hierarchy, but relationships.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/19/18 2:16 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: OTCP... |
UncleJD |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. |
Let that sink in real good. Is there any point where we submit to any authority other than "our own"? |
OK. If Aaron's statement isn't true, all you have is someone else's beliefs, opinions, interpretations and traditions. Whose? Where is the Holy Spirit in your equation?
You have to own your own faith...and we all do. We all believe something.
Submission, properly understood, simply means letting someone else have a voice to influence your beliefs, opinions, interpretations and tradition and esteeming them above yourself. Submission (valuing and respecting others) flows out of relationships, not simple hierarchy, but relationships. |
MY equation? I didn't say the "our own" statement that was a quote from another poster. But while we're at it, your WOF heroes seem to be in a constant state of new revelations that contradict established doctrines so where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of that confusion? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
1/19/18 5:13 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | All we have is our own beliefs, opinions, interpretations, and traditions. |
Let that sink in real good. Is there any point where we submit to any authority other than "our own"? |
OK. If Aaron's statement isn't true, all you have is someone else's beliefs, opinions, interpretations and traditions. Whose? Where is the Holy Spirit in your equation?
You have to own your own faith...and we all do. We all believe something.
Submission, properly understood, simply means letting someone else have a voice to influence your beliefs, opinions, interpretations and tradition and esteeming them above yourself. Submission (valuing and respecting others) flows out of relationships, not simple hierarchy, but relationships. |
MY equation? I didn't say the "our own" statement that was a quote from another poster. But while we're at it, your WOF heroes seem to be in a constant state of new revelations that contradict established doctrines so where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of that confusion? |
I believe the point Brad was making is that we all have sets of beliefs that may be somewhat different than the next Christian's. Like a Venn diagram, my beliefs may overlap your significantly...but there may be some things that you and I see differently.
If we are going to simply let "authority" make the choice for us, then we ought to be willing to say that Luther was out of order for withstanding the authority of Rome. Or that the Spurlings were out of order for not standing down on the things that believed the Word of God indicated.
We all need authority in our lives and in the church. But we also have to be willing to, at times, not just accept what authority states. Yes, disagree respectfully, but still disagree. To do otherwise is to ensure that eventually we all wind up as slaves to SOMEONE ELSE'S set of beliefs. If we all can receive a word from the Lord, then no one should be the only one getting anything from the Lord. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/19/18 7:57 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | What I AM arguing is that neither you, me, nor anyone else, has the scriptural firepower to show they the WOF are clearly and undeniably wrong. |
At air is a mite hilarious, Aaron. Son, if at was true then em apostle boys wasted their time in writin the New Testament. All a feller needs is a good Bible (not a Dake Bible), good sense, good thinkin skills, an the ability to stand on truth. |
Well, it actually is kind of funny, isn't it? Especially since you have spent so much time running them down, and yet we find that you only had your interpretation vs. theirs.
The NT writers gave us the truth...but how we interpret that truth is the thing, isn't it? Explains the number of denominations. And explains why you and the WOF don't see eye-to-eye. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/19/18 8:00 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bradfreeman |
I believe the scripture, when rightly divided and preached produces:
Faith - the persuasion that God is a loving and generous Father who sent His Son as the expression of His love to show us who He is and redeem us out of death and into life and the persuasion that Jesus succeed and is Lord.
Hope - the confident expectation of good.
Love - commitment, selflessness (joy, peace, patient, kindness, gentleness, meekness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control).
I recoil from interpretations of scripture that appear to be producing meanness, judgmental-ism, legalism, arrogance, pride, fear, shame, condemnation, hypocrisy, hopelessness, greed and selfishness.
What is difficult sometimes is when you see a mean or arrogant or selfish person preaching, not to simply reject everything they say outright - if you hear Christ preached from wrong motives, you may still be able to rejoice that Christ is preached.
It may, in fact, be only part of what they believe that is producing the bad fruit you observe.
When you finally see Christ in the scriptures, you've heard the Spirit (not just read or memorized the letter) and find eternal life.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/20/18 10:52 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Dave Dorsey |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | When you finally see Christ in the scriptures, you've heard the Spirit (not just read or memorized the letter) and find eternal life. |
You are fortunate to have, as Montanus did, a direct revelation from the Spirit that helps you understand the Scriptures with perfect accuracy. The rest of us are left to contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, and to study to show ourselves approved and rightly divide the word of truth.
I wish that I could have the sort of revelation you have, Brad, that allowed me to form a perfect understanding of God's word by taking single verses and sometimes even partial sentences from here and from there to construct my doctrine and theology. Sadly, I don't have that grace, and am left to exegete the Scripture in context and to meditate on the totality of the argument a writer is making, over verses and chapters, to understand the message of God's word.
Pray for me, Brad. Maybe one day I can be free of this silly desire to memorize books of God's word so I can understand the argument being made in context. Maybe one day I will be able to have a faith based on a verse here and a verse there, a clause here and a sentence there, so I can actually know what it means to know Christ.
This will be my last reply to you, Brad. I genuinely and warmly wish you well. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/20/18 11:03 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | I genuinely and warmly wish you well. |
The snarkiness and sarcasm of your post belie this comment.
Jesus promised all of us a direct revelation from the Spirit - that He would teach us and guide us into all truth. John said that anointing teaches us. As many as have that leading are His children.
I'm still looking for Christ in the scriptures, growing and discovering Him every day, pulling down strongholds of thoughts that aren't captivated by His obedience. Acts helps - with people are actually willing to dialogue and not just lob insults and leave. Your methodology will slow your metanoia.
Don't forget the cross when you're reading Romans 2. It mattered.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/20/18 1:19 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Acts helps - with people are actually willing to dialogue ..." |
Much like you always high tail it and start another thread when you have been proven wrong.
This thread ends just as I suspected.
Aaron and Brad indicating Hagin can't be proven wrong - others contending that he is plainly in error.
As long as individual verses are allowed to be taken out of the whole theme of the NT - then nothing can ever be "proved". Aaron thinks that proves his point - but it doesn't.
Rafael, thanks for posting your previous research.
I wholeheartedly concur.
You can post it again in another year. It will still be true.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
1/20/18 4:45 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| NBF... |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Acts helps - with people are actually willing to dialogue ..." |
Much like you always high tail it and start another thread when you have been proven wrong.
This thread ends just as I suspected.
Aaron and Brad indicating Hagin can't be proven wrong - others contending that he is plainly in error.
As long as individual verses are allowed to be taken out of the whole theme of the NT - then nothing can ever be "proved". Aaron thinks that proves his point - but it doesn't.
Rafael, thanks for posting your previous research.
I wholeheartedly concur.
You can post it again in another year. It will still be true. |
NBF, I do not espouse WOF theology. Like I said, I came to my own beliefs through my own study and so forth. At the same time, I find that, yes, some of my beliefs do align with WOF theology. So do some of your beliefs (I mean, you DO still believe that Jesus is the Son of God, is Lord of All, can heal and deliver, can supply our needs, and such...right?).
Yes, I DO believe that, if Jesus is any example to us, we SHOULD see everyone healed that comes to Him for healing. Now, do I see that in my own ministry? NOT EVEN CLOSE! I'm delighted if someone says, "Bro. Scott, ten days ago, you prayed for my cold, and, lo and behold, it's gone now!"
But here's the difference between me and the Word of Doubt: I ASPIRE to this. I believe it is ATTAINABLE. I believe it is a place God wants for us.
I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But the difference is that while I ASPIRE to it, others dismiss it as falsehood. Why is it false to believe that everyone that came to Jesus got healed? And why is it false to aspire even to the lesser record of the Apostles in their healing ministry?
If what OTCP presented is truly standard WOF theology (and not a twisted, warped version of it for strawman purposes), then, I'm likely in agreement with most of you that some of these things are just "out there." Are they completely without merit in the scripture? No. There IS some basis for what they hold. You and I may not think they are correct, but we aren't justified in acting like they are completely contrary to the scripture...because they aren't without some reason for where they stand.
I have not tried to prove WOF theology (except in those areas where they overlap my own theology). Rather, I have tried to show that we can huff and puff, posting ad nauseam about how bad WOF theology is, only to find that, well, their positions are not exactly without any foundation (even if we still don't agree with them).
That is and was all I was trying to do. Of course, if you have a silver bullet argument that destroys the WOF once and for all, I'd be happy to stand corrected.
God bless you, my greatest frenemy. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/20/18 5:19 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: NBF... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | [If what OTCP presented is truly standard WOF theology (and not a twisted, warped version of it for strawman purposes), then, I'm likely in agreement with most of you that some of these things are just "out there." |
How much closer to the doctrine can one get, I documented the belief from their own primary sources. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/20/18 10:30 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bradfreeman |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Aaron and Brad indicating Hagin can't be proven wrong - others contending that he is plainly in error. |
I simply presented some scripture with some questions about what the passages appear to be saying...with no response. Someone else hightailed it outta this conversation...not me. As for Hagin, I never met him and haven't quoted him, let alone stated he is right...which he may be.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/21/18 6:21 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
diakoneo |
I suppose my issue is with error in general. If I know there may be some error in the doctrine which I am listening to and in turn learning from, should I immediately pull back from it or continue? If I am uncertain whether there is error or not, how would I determine if there was error? It seems the only way to determine is to study the word in context...verse, chapter, book and whole book.
If we see then a little error, should we turn a blind eye and say, "well for the most part it is good and it feels good...tastes good?" Or because of the error should we stand and point to the error and make every one aware of it? Is a little error OK. How far can I be from the truth and be okay?
The word sin was originally a term used to describe missing the mark also failure and to be in error It seems in archery the object was to reach the gold. You could hit the target, but still you sinned and was in error when you missed the goal. So, how far off can I be when aiming for the target? Will bad doctrine produce bad results? If I know what will produce erroneous results, why would I continue using that method? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/21/18 11:27 am
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
