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 Re: Pastor Jackson |
PastorJackson |
| curly wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | curly wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | BlessedinMsTn wrote: | FOLLOW ME as I FOLLOW CHRIST
We must believe that PAUL was the VOICE of his church age and as such he was FOLLOWING CHRIST... He told us to FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS
To now try and say "Well that was Paul"
Paul said if we preach any other doctrines than he preached.. it doesn't matter wer'e an Angel... we would be cursed.. thats a pretty concrete voice to follow......dont ya think?
So why try to diminish his commands to women as if its just a man speaking?
I love how you guys try to make this sound like just some chauvanist man speaking in a chauvnistic society and perhaps this was not Gods command....
Very next verse he took care of those who would try to say "he didn't mean what he said" he took it waaaaaay past his personal opinions...
VERY NEXT VERSE
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
You see.. he brought it back to GOD and the BEGINNING... telling us that his teaching transcends custom and time |
Excuse me what do you mean you guys? I have never tried to make it sound like that, next I see what you are saying, but this really contradicts Joel. Why would God pour out his Spirit and all of the gifts that are for "everyone" if he did not want them to be used by 1/2? |
Pastor Jackson... do you not read my writing? Honestly, I have always said that women were in perfect order to PROPHESY... but not to teach, preach, correct. lead or instruct men in the ways of God... it puts her out of her place.. her husband is to teach her and the children in the ways of God....
Propesying in every instance of scripture is telling something of DIVINE UTTERANCE>. it is not a prepared sermon of instruction.. When Abagus PROPHESIED he told what was gonna soon happen to Paul...
Women are perfectly in their right to prophesy....... this is not a Five Fold Ministry position in the church.. it is a gift and every believer is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit |
Yes I do, jeeze. Perhaps I was not clear, I am talking of the 5 fold. This is for every believer so why exclude the women? |
No Pastor the Five Fold is not for women.. because this is the headship of the church.. the gifts that are given to CORRECT the church... and women are forbidden to Rebuke or Correct the Sons of God... it would be just as wrong as allowing your children to correct your wife... nothing against the children but it is out of Divine Order |
apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, evangelist First we are all called to be evangelist, so that alone makes your argument false, since that opens women to the 5 fold. Also preacher is open to women. So that is 2 areas that you are wrong on. I am waiting for a rebuttal thanks. |
Just to clarify your statement, not all Christians are called to the office of an Evangelist. What you mean is that all Christians are called to be witnesses and disciples. |
Yes we are not called to the office but we are all called to do the work of an Evangelist so what really is the difference? |
Oh, brother, there is a major difference. One for example, is the 5fold ministry gifts are the love gifts from Jesus to His body, the church who is here on the earth. They are for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of the body. They carry a much greater responsibility and greater level of anointing than those who are not called to function in that office. |
I see nothing in the bible that prohibits women from holding the offices, I do see where they can not be a Bishop, or Deacon but not the 5 fold. Another thing if we want to look at it, the office of Prophet, since we all have the Holy Spirit and are all to seek the prophetic gifts then do we really have use for the office of Prophet in the New Testament?
_________________
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4743
10/29/08 9:01 am
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John Jett |
| Can everyone please stop quoting the entire thread? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/29/08 9:25 am
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| Re: curly - please explain |
curly |
| MayB2Day wrote: | You suggested:
| Quote: | | They carry a much greater responsibility and greater level of anointing than those who are not called to function in that office. |
Are you only applying these gifts to preachers? If so, what is your scriptural support for this position/claim?
Do you not think that layman can be gifted in these ways?
Do you not think that a small group leader in a church can be gifted as pastor/teacher?
Would you like to tell layman such as the late Charles Beach or Leonard Albert or Al Taylor that they don't have the gift of evangelism? |
There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
A layman can be used in any of the nine gifts of the Spirit, but that is not what we are discussing.
A small group leader can be used to speak or minister, but still that is not being called or gifted to function in the office of one of the love gifts from Jesus.(5fold ministry)
Charles Beach, Leonard Albert and Al Taylor were all great men of God. I cannot answer for them. It is very much possible that they were called to function in one of these offices, but either they themselves or the Church of God referred to them as laymen.Maybe they were trying to be humble. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/29/08 12:09 pm
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Link |
| PastorJackson wrote: | | curly wrote: | | Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this? |
That is Biblical Hermeneutics, that is the study of the reasons things were done, that is the reason that Paul made the admonition to be silent because the woman and men were separate and they would ask their husbands question and cause disruptions. |
I've heard people teach as if it were Biblical doctrine that the men sat on one side and the women on the other, and Paul was talking about women shouting to their husbands across the meeting.
This kind of teaching is a pet peeve of mine. It's positing one scenario, with not real evidence to back it up, and treating your theory as if it were scripture.
From what I've read, women in the synagogue were in the back, behind the lattice, not on the side. I don't know if or when women sat on one side of a church meeting. Remember, this was when meetings were primarily in homes.
Furthermore, this interpretation does not have anything to do with any clues in the text of I Corinthians. The women keeping silent verses come right after instructions to prophets. There is no indication in the text that yelling questions across the church is the issue. I've never heard any solid historical evidence that women yelled across the church or even that they sat on the left and right of the room.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
10/29/08 1:38 pm
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PastorJackson |
| Link wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | curly wrote: | | Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this? |
That is Biblical Hermeneutics, that is the study of the reasons things were done, that is the reason that Paul made the admonition to be silent because the woman and men were separate and they would ask their husbands question and cause disruptions. |
I've heard people teach as if it were Biblical doctrine that the men sat on one side and the women on the other, and Paul was talking about women shouting to their husbands across the meeting.
This kind of teaching is a pet peeve of mine. It's positing one scenario, with not real evidence to back it up, and treating your theory as if it were scripture.
From what I've read, women in the synagogue were in the back, behind the lattice, not on the side. I don't know if or when women sat on one side of a church meeting. Remember, this was when meetings were primarily in homes.
Furthermore, this interpretation does not have anything to do with any clues in the text of I Corinthians. The women keeping silent verses come right after instructions to prophets. There is no indication in the text that yelling questions across the church is the issue. I've never heard any solid historical evidence that women yelled across the church or even that they sat on the left and right of the room. |
And I have heard no solid evidence to discount it either.
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4743
10/29/08 2:34 pm
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curly |
| I do remember when I was a boy growing up in the church, that the men always prayed at one altar and the women always prayed at the other altar. I remember thinking this one on this side is the mens altar and this one on the other side is the womens. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/29/08 3:39 pm
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| curly - you didn't answer my question |
MayB2Day |
I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1909
10/29/08 10:36 pm
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| Re: curly - you didn't answer my question |
Rafael D Martinez |
| MayB2Day wrote: | I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
That is one of the common fallacies in the teaching on the five fold ministry. It is a ministry model drawn from Scripture but there's no Scripture to support the belief that they have a "greater anointing" or some greater level of spiritual power that puts them on this exalted level of spirituality which makes them authoritative sources of leadership above question. It is precisely at this point that 5 fold ministry models become wide open for the well known abuses of power that they have exhibited .. because those who follow them simply submit to their authority, no matter what it does, says or leads them.
If there is any greater anything for the five fold minister, it's responsibility for their actions, which is something the Bible says a lot about .. and which the fivefold DON'T ..
_________________
www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
10/30/08 8:56 am
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| Thanks for some sanity |
BlessedinMsTn |
| Link wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | curly wrote: | | Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this? |
That is Biblical Hermeneutics, that is the study of the reasons things were done, that is the reason that Paul made the admonition to be silent because the woman and men were separate and they would ask their husbands question and cause disruptions. |
I've heard people teach as if it were Biblical doctrine that the men sat on one side and the women on the other, and Paul was talking about women shouting to their husbands across the meeting.
This kind of teaching is a pet peeve of mine. It's positing one scenario, with not real evidence to back it up, and treating your theory as if it were scripture.
From what I've read, women in the synagogue were in the back, behind the lattice, not on the side. I don't know if or when women sat on one side of a church meeting. Remember, this was when meetings were primarily in homes.
Furthermore, this interpretation does not have anything to do with any clues in the text of I Corinthians. The women keeping silent verses come right after instructions to prophets. There is no indication in the text that yelling questions across the church is the issue. I've never heard any solid historical evidence that women yelled across the church or even that they sat on the left and right of the room. |
I have always been so upset when people try to use that lame argument
_________________
www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
10/30/08 4:51 pm
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| Re: curly - you didn't answer my question |
BlessedinMsTn |
| Rafael D Martinez wrote: | | MayB2Day wrote: | I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
That is one of the common fallacies in the teaching on the five fold ministry. It is a ministry model drawn from Scripture but there's no Scripture to support the belief that they have a "greater anointing" or some greater level of spiritual power that puts them on this exalted level of spirituality which makes them authoritative sources of leadership above question. It is precisely at this point that 5 fold ministry models become wide open for the well known abuses of power that they have exhibited .. because those who follow them simply submit to their authority, no matter what it does, says or leads them.
If there is any greater anything for the five fold minister, it's responsibility for their actions, which is something the Bible says a lot about .. and which the fivefold DON'T .. |
Words of a Five-Fold minister - FOLLOW ME - his name was Paul
He didn't say follow 10 different elders... No, there is one voice, one Father in the Lord. one person that God places over us.... I don't have 10 Fathers.. I have one.. he alone is my authority over me.....
_________________
www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
10/30/08 4:52 pm
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curly |
| Is the word laymen in the Bible? If not, why do we use it?? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/30/08 5:09 pm
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curly |
| When I refer to the 5 fold ministry, I am not talking about self anointed , self appointed. There are too many people today trying to minister who has never been called to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. I am not talking about witnessing and leading people to Christ. I believe there are too many today behind pulpits who has no clue as to what real ministry is all about. He called us for the perfection of the saints, the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/30/08 5:16 pm
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| Re: were there any female apostles |
curly |
| curly wrote: | | in the Bible. I heard that there was one in Greenville, SC. Is this Biblical? |
This was the original question. I believe we are on a different subject now. So as they would say at the General Assembly, are you fer it or agin it? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/30/08 5:27 pm
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| Re: were there any female apostles |
BlessedinMsTn |
| curly wrote: | | curly wrote: | | in the Bible. I heard that there was one in Greenville, SC. Is this Biblical? |
This was the original question. I believe we are on a different subject now. So as they would say at the General Assembly, are you fer it or agin it? |
The real question would be is God for it or against it!
Gods Angel to the church age tells us these words.....
I SUFFER (or would not permit) not a woman to TEACH or have any authority over a man
_________________
www.thevaughnfamily.org
The Remnant are Returning. Foundations are being Restored. All Breaches are being Repaired. The Body of Christ is Rising! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6126
10/30/08 6:02 pm
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| Re: curly - you didn't answer my question |
curly |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | Rafael D Martinez wrote: | | MayB2Day wrote: | I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
That is one of the common fallacies in the teaching on the five fold ministry. It is a ministry model drawn from Scripture but there's no Scripture to support the belief that they have a "greater anointing" or some greater level of spiritual power that puts them on this exalted level of spirituality which makes them authoritative sources of leadership above question. It is precisely at this point that 5 fold ministry models become wide open for the well known abuses of power that they have exhibited .. because those who follow them simply submit to their authority, no matter what it does, says or leads them.
If there is any greater anything for the five fold minister, it's responsibility for their actions, which is something the Bible says a lot about .. and which the fivefold DON'T .. |
Words of a Five-Fold minister - FOLLOW ME - his name was Paul
He didn't say follow 10 different elders... No, there is one voice, one Father in the Lord. one person that God places over us.... I don't have 10 Fathers.. I have one.. he alone is my authority over me..... |
You are exactly right. When Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, he didn't say follow the deacons and elders, and minister of music, youth leader,etc. , etc. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/30/08 6:35 pm
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| Re: were there any female apostles |
curly |
| BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | curly wrote: | | curly wrote: | | in the Bible. I heard that there was one in Greenville, SC. Is this Biblical? |
This was the original question. I believe we are on a different subject now. So as they would say at the General Assembly, are you fer it or agin it? |
The real question would be is God for it or against it!
Gods Angel to the church age tells us these words.....
I SUFFER (or would not permit) not a woman to TEACH or have any authority over a man |
Thanks for the correction. Is God for it or against it? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/30/08 6:37 pm
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| Re: curly - you didn't answer my question |
PastorJackson |
| curly wrote: | | BlessedinMsTn wrote: | | Rafael D Martinez wrote: | | MayB2Day wrote: | I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
That is one of the common fallacies in the teaching on the five fold ministry. It is a ministry model drawn from Scripture but there's no Scripture to support the belief that they have a "greater anointing" or some greater level of spiritual power that puts them on this exalted level of spirituality which makes them authoritative sources of leadership above question. It is precisely at this point that 5 fold ministry models become wide open for the well known abuses of power that they have exhibited .. because those who follow them simply submit to their authority, no matter what it does, says or leads them.
If there is any greater anything for the five fold minister, it's responsibility for their actions, which is something the Bible says a lot about .. and which the fivefold DON'T .. |
Words of a Five-Fold minister - FOLLOW ME - his name was Paul
He didn't say follow 10 different elders... No, there is one voice, one Father in the Lord. one person that God places over us.... I don't have 10 Fathers.. I have one.. he alone is my authority over me..... |
You are exactly right. When Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, he didn't say follow the deacons and elders, and minister of music, youth leader,etc. , etc. |
So you are saying that you do not obey those that are put over you? Because they are put over you and the bible is clear on obeying them and make it a joy for them as they have to account for you. I am a Pastor in my church just like the Senior Pastor is I have to account for the ministries under my authority and I can not believe I am seeing ministers of the Gosple saying that not to follow the deacons and elders, the Pastors were the elders!
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4743
10/30/08 10:22 pm
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| Pastor Jackson |
curly |
| You are presenting a good thought. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/31/08 12:52 pm
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| Re: Pastor Jackson |
PastorJackson |
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| Re: curly - you didn't answer my question |
curly |
| Rafael D Martinez wrote: | | MayB2Day wrote: | I asked you for scriptural support for your position. You did not provide it.
You gave me an opinion:
| Quote: | There is a major difference than being called to the office of one of the 5 fold ministry gifts. Eph. chapter 4 is a good place to read.
|
Again, where do you get that? To begin with the way your statement is worded doesn't make sense.
I know what Ephesians 4 says. But, who is to say that a Sunday School teacher would not be gifted as a pastor/teacher? Why wouldn't a prison ministry worker not be gifted as an evangelist? |
That is one of the common fallacies in the teaching on the five fold ministry. It is a ministry model drawn from Scripture but there's no Scripture to support the belief that they have a "greater anointing" or some greater level of spiritual power that puts them on this exalted level of spirituality which makes them authoritative sources of leadership above question. It is precisely at this point that 5 fold ministry models become wide open for the well known abuses of power that they have exhibited .. because those who follow them simply submit to their authority, no matter what it does, says or leads them.
If there is any greater anything for the five fold minister, it's responsibility for their actions, which is something the Bible says a lot about .. and which the fivefold DON'T .. |
Do you not believe in apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers??? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1754
10/31/08 5:02 pm
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