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 The Omniscience of Jesus. |
bradfreeman |
Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
What are implications of this passage that indicates that Jesus is not omniscient?
Does it reflect on the "oneness" of the Trinity?
Does it alter our definition of God as omniscient?
Does it reflect on the diety of Christ?
Does it simply reflect on the humanity of Christ?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/16/12 7:13 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I think it reflects on the necessary self-limitation involved in the Word becoming flesh. In another passage it says Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man (Luke 2:52). In yet another, it says He emptied himself and took on the form of a servant (Philippians 2). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/16/12 9:40 am
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Nick Park |
No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race".
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
3/16/12 9:45 am
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bradfreeman |
| Nick Park wrote: | No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race". |
Does Jesus now, in His glorified state, possess omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence?
Does He now know the day and the hour?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/16/12 9:54 am
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Nick Park |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race". |
Does Jesus now, in His glorified state, possess omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence?
Does He now know the day and the hour? |
Most Christians would believe that Jesus is now omnipotent and omniscient, having voluntarily laid down those qualities during His Incarnation.
As for His being omniscient - that is disputed. Luther and Zwingli had a row over this centuries ago. Zwingli denied the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, arguing that if Christ was seated at the right hand of God then He couldn't also be in the bread.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
3/16/12 10:11 am
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Bro Bob |
We are told he is not, or specifically was not omniscient, as your text proves. It is a big point considering what he DID know.
The spirit is omni-present. Jesus is not. Jesus, himself, is the one who points to that fact to show why he must go away.
Gonna tip toe towards heresy right here, so I am being careful.
I see evidence that the reason we can be expected to have faith in Jesus as to who he said he was, is due to the fact that HE had to accept the same thing by an even greater faith.
Can you imagine Mary and Joseph, sitting down with their two year old as he is learning to talk, and saying, "Son, you are not like the others." Can you imagine the conversations and the questions that must have followed? |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/16/12 10:43 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Revelation chapters four and five might hold the answer.
Revelation 4:5...........
| Quote: | | In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. |
Revelation 5:6.......
| Quote: | | Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. |
Most scholars feel that the "seven spirits of God" represnt the one Spirit operating in seven primary functions. In Revelation 4, these seven spirits are "in front of the throne". But in Revelation 5, with the exaltation of the Lamb, they are now "sent forth into all the earth". I beleive this is a reference to Jesus being delegated, as it were, the power to baptize people with the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:33). The Spirit is now sent forth into all the earth and upon all flesh.
However, notice that the verse says that the "seven eyes" on the Lamb are symbolic for those "seven spirits sent forth into all the earth". Most scholars feel that the reference to "seven eyes" is symbolic for OMNISCIENCE. If that is the case, then Jesus does indeed now know the very hour and day he will return. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/16/12 10:48 am
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| Excuses... |
FloridaForever |
Whenever we see something like this in scripture, we tend to run to one of two refuges: Either "that was before the resurrection" or "Jesus had limited Himself."
Really? He limited Himself? Where do you see the limitation when He walked on the water, raised the dead, saw angels, on and on and on? We certainly don't see a "limited" person there. But when something creeps up that we can't explain, well, it's because He purposely limited Himself.
I think we should just take it at face value.
The notion of the trinity and of oneness gets us in SERIOUS trouble with this scripture. After all, if Jesus is indeed one and the same with God, then how can He NOT know (oh, wait, he purposely blinded Himself to such things--He could know EVERYTHING else...but not this particular thing...hmmmm). And if Jesus is God in the more direct sense that Oneness believers state, then this is more ludicrous still!
Jesus is the SON of God. He is God in the same sense (and even more) that you are your father. You have his genes, mannerisms, and even perhaps his authority. You were alive in your father's life before you were born (as Levi paid tithes in Abraham).
But Jesus is not, nor will He ever be, the PERSON of His Father...who is God in all senses.
Jesus didn't know because HIS God had not revealed it to Him. His God is His Father, Who is our God, too. (I ascend to my God and your God.)
As for the resurrection, it is "blamed" for everything from the end of purgatory (no scripture) to the reason Gentiles don't have to do X, Y, and Z. Some of it's true...some of it is an excuse.
Yes, this verse puts the trinity and oneness believers on notice in terms of the problems with their doctrine.
Of course it doesn't bother my doctrine AT ALL, because Jesus is God in every single sense except one: He is not the PERSON of God (His Father). |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/16/12 1:17 pm
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| Culture? |
Poimen |
Heard Zola Levitt explain this once based on 1st century Jewish culture, and the fact that an espoused groom could not go receive his bride unto himself until His father said so. There were very practical reasons for that. However, Zola intimated that Jesus wad referring to this custom and the fact that it was not his place, or in His power, to reveal such a date. Not that he didn't actually have knowledge of it as divine person himself.
This agrees nicely with Jesus' response, just before His ascension, to the disciples question if He would ow restore the kingdom to Israel.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
3/16/12 3:15 pm
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| Re: Excuses... |
Quiet Wyatt |
| FloridaForever wrote: | Whenever we see something like this in scripture, we tend to run to one of two refuges: Either "that was before the resurrection" or "Jesus had limited Himself."
Really? He limited Himself? Where do you see the limitation when He walked on the water, raised the dead, saw angels, on and on and on? We certainly don't see a "limited" person there. But when something creeps up that we can't explain, well, it's because He purposely limited Himself.
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This only is a problem if one ignores the fact that Jesus so often said things like:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. NIV
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. NIV
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
The Son was able to walk on water because it was the Father's will for Him to do so at that time.
Acts 10:38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Jesus' miracles were done by the power of the Spirit. What He accomplished, he accomplished as an anointed man:
Heb. 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/16/12 3:38 pm
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| Re: Excuses... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | FloridaForever wrote: | Whenever we see something like this in scripture, we tend to run to one of two refuges: Either "that was before the resurrection" or "Jesus had limited Himself."
Really? He limited Himself? Where do you see the limitation when He walked on the water, raised the dead, saw angels, on and on and on? We certainly don't see a "limited" person there. But when something creeps up that we can't explain, well, it's because He purposely limited Himself.
|
This only is a problem when one ignores the fact that Jesus so often said things like:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. NIV
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. NIV
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
The Son was able to walk on water because it was the Father's will for Him to do so at that time.
Acts 10:38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Jesus' miracles were done by the power of the Spirit. What He accomplished, he accomplished as an anointed man:
Heb. 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? |
We completely agree!! |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/16/12 3:41 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
The problem with your take on these scripture is the a priori assumption that Jesus DID purposely limit Himself and that He was God in the same sense that the Father is God.
That is, if you read these verses with that assumption in mind, of course, you would indeed slant it in that direction. But the plain reading takes us elsewhere.
| Quote: | This only is a problem if one ignores the fact that Jesus so often said things like:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. NIV
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. NIV
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
The Son was able to walk on water because it was the Father's will for Him to do so at that time.
Absolutely. Just as it was God's will for Peter to walk on the water. But to suggest that Jesus is God in the most literal sense of all, but that He does not know something that another member of the trinity does know, places us in a poor light indeed. It suggests fractures in the trinity. It suggests that the "persons" of the trinity aren't exactly co-equal. Worse, it smacks of "make-it-up-ism"--we can't explain it well, but just believe that this is how it is, because it must be if there is a trinity.
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/16/12 6:16 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
LOL. No, actually, it is not an a priori assumption, it is a direct inference and a logical conclusion based on the evidence presented in those Scriptures as well as others.
As Paul says in Philippians 2, though Christ was equal with God, he emptied himself and took on the form of a servant, for our salvation.
In becoming a man, He of necessity was neither omnipresent, omnipotent, nor omniscient. This is basic Christology 101. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/16/12 6:20 pm
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chainrattler |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race". |
Does Jesus now, in His glorified state, possess omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence?
Does He now know the day and the hour? |
What difference does it make? We don't. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
3/16/12 7:22 pm
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bradfreeman |
| chainrattler wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race". |
Does Jesus now, in His glorified state, possess omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence?
Does He now know the day and the hour? |
What difference does it make? We don't. |
 That's not what the books in the Christian bookstore claim. 
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/16/12 8:30 pm
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chainrattler |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | chainrattler wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | No more than the fact that Jesus was not omnipresent or omnipotent has such implications.
The theological word for this is kenosis. Charles Wesley summed it up best when he said Jesus "Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for adam's helpless race". |
Does Jesus now, in His glorified state, possess omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence?
Does He now know the day and the hour? |
What difference does it make? We don't. |
That's not what the books in the Christian bookstore claim. |
I never go to Christian bookstores or buy their books. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
3/16/12 9:12 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | LOL. No, actually, it is not an a priori assumption, it is a direct inference and a logical conclusion based on the evidence presented in those Scriptures as well as others.
As Paul says in Philippians 2, though Christ was equal with God, he emptied himself and took on the form of a servant, for our salvation.
In becoming a man, He of necessity was neither omnipresent, omnipotent, nor omniscient. This is basic Christology 101. |
Yes, I know this is the basic belief. I claim that it has mistakes. We all understand that Jesus took a "step down" to become one of us. But He acted as God-like as we would expect the Son of God to act.... But then we come to something He doesn't know...something kept from Him. Something we have no reason to believe He even knows now.
That's not co-equality. That's not the trinity.
The ONLY reason we think that Jesus emptied Himself of such knowledge is precisely because we could not explain how He could really be God if He didn't know this, or couldn't do that, or had a personal God Himself.
And the reason that we went there was because we didn't know what to do with Jesus. Was He God? man? something else? Once the Councils decided that Jesus was God--and came up with the trinity in order to protect the notion of monotheism--they HAD to then go with the emptying theory of Christ.
I'm not saying that it must be false (though I believe it to be). It certainly does have some weight from the scriptures. But it has to resort, over and over, to the "ah, but if you only understood that Christ emptied Himself" argument.
I mean, Jesus Himself, after His resurrection, supposedly not "full" again, said He was ascending to Mary's God and HIS God.
We don't get the luxury of just disregarding this. We are forced to come up with some understanding that addresses it all, I think. Even if that understanding is that the writers didn't know either...and so we're all still trying to figure out Jesus. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/16/12 9:22 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
"Christ emptied himself" is not an argument. It's a plain fact of Scripture, totally in agreement with the doctrine of the Trinity. It explains perfectly well every one of these supposed contradictions you raise. It is not an assumption of a mistaken belief borne of a desperate attempt to explain the unexplainable.
He all the time acted as God in the flesh, which is what He was. And God in the flesh had to depend totally on his Father and the Spirit in order to do the work he was sent to do--so that He could be a faithful high priest, being touched with the feelings of our infirmities. He had to know what it was like to be fully human in order to be a sympathetic high priest and mediator/intercessor between God and man. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/16/12 9:32 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| If we understood everything about God and omniscience, God would not be God at all. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
3/16/12 10:11 pm
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| Re: Wyatt... |
Nick Park |
| FloridaForever wrote: |
Yes, I know this is the basic belief. I claim that it has mistakes. We all understand that Jesus took a "step down" to become one of us. But He acted as God-like as we would expect the Son of God to act.... But then we come to something He doesn't know...something kept from Him. Something we have no reason to believe He even knows now.
That's not co-equality. That's not the trinity. |
Actually it is co-equality, and it is the Trinity.
It's also the most amazing and wonderful example of voluntary servanthood. And if we understood that better, then our Christianity would be transformed and it would change the way we act and speak toward each other.
At least that's how some guy called Paul described it in Philippians 1:1-11
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
3/17/12 12:33 am
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