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 Bonhoeffer was involved in a plot to KILL Hitler. What about the current situation? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| The USA has already killed more innocents by abortion than Hitler killed in WWII. What are the ethics of a contemporary theologian promoting a Bonhoeffer-esque approach? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
10/19/16 9:24 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
It is impossible to imagine anyone seriously arguing that Hitler deserved anything but a righteous killing by 1944.
The problem today with regard to the abortion issue is that there are far too many baby-murderers manifestly worthy of death (abortion doctors, abortion nurses, pro-abort legislators, presidents and Supreme Court justices, as well as mothers who knowingly consented to have their babies murdered) to reasonably execute justice on them all in this world.
By comparison, Bonhoeffer's dilemma as a pacifist getting involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler presents virtually no moral problem whatsoever. |
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Posts: 12817
10/19/16 10:00 am
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bonnie knox |
| Ole Timer, are you suggesting that a particular political candidate might be the subject of this discussion? |
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Posts: 14803
10/19/16 10:05 am
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UncleJD |
| Hitler was ordering mass murder. While the Democratic party allows it (some might argue they actually encourage it), they are not forcing it. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
10/19/16 10:45 am
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krista |
| Best walk softly guys. Just sayin'........ |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
10/19/16 12:04 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | It is impossible to imagine anyone seriously arguing that Hitler deserved anything but a righteous killing by 1944.
The problem today with regard to the abortion issue is that there are far too many baby-murderers manifestly worthy of death (abortion doctors, abortion nurses, pro-abort legislators, presidents and Supreme Court justices, as well as mothers who knowingly consented to have their babies murdered) to reasonably execute justice on them all in this world.
By comparison, Bonhoeffer's dilemma as a pacifist getting involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler presents virtually no moral problem whatsoever. |
By 1944 Hitler was out of his mind and not really running things. It would have been better to kill Himler and Goebles at that point. But America should never have been involved to begin with. We were suckered.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/19/16 12:30 pm
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UncleJD |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | America should never have been involved to begin with. We were suckered. |
This explains so much, thank you. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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10/19/16 12:37 pm
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| Re: Bonhoeffer was involved in a plot to KILL Hitler. What about the current situation? |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | The USA has already killed more innocents by abortion than Hitler killed in WWII. What are the ethics of a contemporary theologian promoting a Bonhoeffer-esque approach? |
Totally unethical.
That isn't the way of Christ.
Bonhoeffer messed up.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
10/19/16 12:48 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | America should never have been involved to begin with. We were suckered. |
This explains so much, thank you. |
We spent all that American blood to take Eastern Europe from one dictator only to give it to an even murderous dictator. Then we drew a line in the sand and told the new dictator, "You can't cross this line", spending trillions to keep that policy in force for years.
Question......why didn't we just do that with Hitler? Much of the central and eastern European countries were his allies. We simply could have warned him to stay out of western Europe, which he really had no designes on to begin with. Central Europe could then have been a buffer between western Europe and the USSR, the far greater menace.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/19/16 12:50 pm
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| Re: Bonhoeffer was involved in a plot to KILL Hitler. What about the current situation? |
UncleJD |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | The USA has already killed more innocents by abortion than Hitler killed in WWII. What are the ethics of a contemporary theologian promoting a Bonhoeffer-esque approach? |
Totally unethical.
That isn't the way of Christ.
Bonhoeffer messed up. |
Actually Bonhoeffer had to deal with his espoused pacifism to make that leap. What you are saying is that pacifism is the right way.
I don't agree. Bonhoeffer was right to resist in the way he did. It wasn't for him to finish the job, but he had to come to that place of resistance of evil via force.
But again, as bad as Democrats are, they are not to the level of Hitler, and a strike against one single leader would do nothing to change what's going on in America. Its the heart of man we're dealing with here. Laws won't stop it either. Only changed hearts will.
IF, politicians were forcing the Church to abort their children, then there would be a justified use of force. |
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Posts: 3147
10/19/16 3:17 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| The OP was a hypothetical, aimed at the actions of Bonhoeffer, not a plot to take on the Elephants and Donkeys. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
10/19/16 3:29 pm
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| If I'm not mistaken, |
Mark Ledbetter |
Hitler's dead.
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Posts: 2109
10/19/16 6:46 pm
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| What di Apostle Paul say? |
4golf |
Apostle Paul, who sit under the greatest perscutor of Christians ever, Nero wrote Romans 13. He didn't say kill leaders! I will follow Apostle Paul and the Word of God on this! Bonhoeffer was wrong to try to kill Hitler!
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Bound By Beaulah
Posts: 1003
10/19/16 6:54 pm
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| Re: What di Apostle Paul say? |
Resident Skeptic |
| 4golf wrote: | | Apostle Paul, who sit under the greatest perscutor of Christians ever, Nero wrote Romans 13. He didn't say kill leaders! I will follow Apostle Paul and the Word of God on this! Bonhoeffer was wrong to try to kill Hitler! |
He probably should have just left Germany. The people had spoken and chose National Socialism. It's hard for Americans to understand why personal rights meant so little to those people. But the more I study the cultures of central and eastern Europe, the less surprised I am. Their history shows a bent toward ethnic collectivism. Communism sought to destroy national identity. National Socialism sought to preserve it. A system just as flawed as communism, but one where the people felt secure and were actually able to have a decent amount of economic liberty (unlike communism).
This also explain why Russians love Putin. He builds them up and gives them pride in who they are (not as individuals, but as Russians). We cannot relate. But nor do we need to think we can change them. They look at Democracy in western Europe and see people voting in their own suicidal destruction. To survive, Germany will need a nationalist dictatorship again. It is reality. That is why our Founders warned us to stay out of Europe's affairs. It ain't our problem.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/19/16 7:38 pm
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| Re: What di Apostle Paul say? |
Link |
| 4golf wrote: | | Apostle Paul, who sit under the greatest perscutor of Christians ever, Nero wrote Romans 13. He didn't say kill leaders! I will follow Apostle Paul and the Word of God on this! Bonhoeffer was wrong to try to kill Hitler! |
I was thinking about the same scenario reading through the thread. I was going to post something about whether the apostles would have conspired to kill Nero. As far as I know, Hitler did not torture Christians in public for entertainment or to prove a point.
But what about Ehud, stabbing a fat king that oppressed Israel in the stomach after telling him it was a message from the LORD?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
10/19/16 8:37 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
If a man breaks into your house with the intent to kill you or your family, is defense justified? Is it evil to defend, if you can, the innocent (family, neighbors, etc.) from evil criminals? And what of convicted murderers? Is the death penalty intrinsically unrighteous?
The supposedly pacifist Jesus is the one true and living God who "killeth, and maketh alive" in both the Old and New Testaments, and who is coming back to execute vengeance upon the ungodly, slaying them utterly. This Jesus who supposedly would never hurt a fly will also one day cast the wicked into the Lake of Fire, a fate far worse than death in this world.
Pacifists take basically one passage in the Sermon on the Mount, and try to make it the universal rule for all time, but not even Jesus, as revealed in Scripture, followed/follows nonviolence all the time. |
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Posts: 12817
10/19/16 10:12 pm
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