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 Re: NBF and John Jett... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | But YOU ALREADY "punish" your wives when we give them the cold shoulder for a day because of whatever. |
Ummm... I don't do this. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
10/27/15 10:21 am
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| Re: NBF and John Jett... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Jett, your wife ALREADY DOES THAT. If you aren't showing her love and affection, you're going to know about it. It could be the silent treatment, it could be "I've got a headache." But it's there, and all husbands eventually know it. |
Yup... I find out about it when my wife says, "Hey, I know you've been busy, but I have been feeling a little unloved lately. Can we talk about that?"
Couples that send secret signals about how they're feeling, rather than openly communicating about it, are not in a super good place. I'm not saying they're in a bad place, but that's not how a healthy relationship works. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
10/27/15 10:23 am
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| Re: NBF and John Jett... |
John Jett |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | But YOU ALREADY "punish" your wives when we give them the cold shoulder for a day because of whatever. |
Ummm... I don't do this. |
Yeah, the same immature man-child that does this, probably thinks he's going to show her who's boss by doing the other idiotic things in the article. To that guy, good luck with your divorce settlement.
Since the Biblical submission we are addressing is a spiritual matter, then the solution can only be a spiritual one. Coerced submission (through treating your spouse like she's your child) is not Biblical submission and can only be equated coerced love. Pray for her, talk to her, counsel her, listen to her as you learn about your role to love her as Christ does, that's the only way forward. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/27/15 10:29 am
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| Re: NBF and John Jett... |
Nick Park |
| John Jett wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | But YOU ALREADY "punish" your wives when we give them the cold shoulder for a day because of whatever. |
Ummm... I don't do this. |
Yeah, the same immature man-child that does this, probably thinks he's going to show her who's boss by doing the other idiotic things in the article. To that guy, good luck with your divorce settlement.
Since the Biblical submission we are addressing is a spiritual matter, then the solution can only be a spiritual one. Coerced submission (through treating your spouse like she's your child) is not Biblical submission and can only be equated coerced love. Pray for her, talk to her, counsel her, listen to her as you learn about your role to love her as Christ does, that's the only way forward. |
Agreed. Behaving like a spoiled five-year-old is hardly loving your wife as Christ loves the Church.
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Posts: 1021
10/27/15 10:52 am
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| Nick, Jett... |
Aaron Scott |
And how do you deal with the rebellious church member? We are all one "body," right? So do you just pray about it?
I doubt that.
Any man that would not PUT A STOP to a wife that was acting like the Jezebel in Revelation has no business in the pulpit. If you pray about it, do you think God is just going to "pray about it," too? Or do you think HE will do something?
Period.
The reason you see all these funny things on Facebook of how to "interpret" what your wife really means (like when she says, "Nothing's the matter," etc.) are PROOF that while some men may never have to encounter such behavior, MOST DO. They get the cold shoulder, etc. So let's work from the "rule" and not the "exception."
Everyone seems to be almost in a hurry to show how THEY would never act like this or that. Folks, good for us that we have good wives. BUT WHAT YOU FAIL TO ADDRESS IS THE REBELLIOUS WIFE. The Michal. The Jezebel. The wives that Solomon had that turned his heart.
THOSE are the ones we have to address. I don't care to hear anything else about how to treat a GOOD wife! We all know how to do that, I imagine. What we are asking is in the cases mentioned above, is it ever right to do anything more than pray and have a conversation? If it's already gone past that point, then what do you do?
Again, we are dealing with the REBELLIOUS WIFE. Not the fine Church of God wife that all of us have. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
10/27/15 12:09 pm
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| Re: Nick, Jett... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | WHAT YOU FAIL TO ADDRESS IS THE REBELLIOUS WIFE. The Michal. The Jezebel. The wives that Solomon had that turned his heart. |
I just texted Beaulah an she said Jezebel WAS NOT a rebellious wife. Beaulah said Jezebel just wore too much make-up and jewelry, an at when the dogs ate her, they left the make-up an jewelry on the ground. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
10/27/15 1:49 pm
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| Re: NBF and John Jett... |
Carolyn Smith |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
But YOU ALREADY "punish" your wives when we give them the cold shoulder for a day because of whatever.f And they "punish" us by doing the same if we didn't act in a manner they thought appropriate. The action is meant to make them apologize or feel the consequences of their actions, right? So most of us already use such methods, we just don't call it "discipline."
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This is called being passive-aggressive. Very ineffective way of dealing with problems.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
10/27/15 11:30 pm
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| Re: Nick, Jett... |
Carolyn Smith |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | And how do you deal with the rebellious church member? We are all one "body," right? So do you just pray about it?
I doubt that.
Any man that would not PUT A STOP to a wife that was acting like the Jezebel in Revelation has no business in the pulpit. If you pray about it, do you think God is just going to "pray about it," too? Or do you think HE will do something?
Period.
The reason you see all these funny things on Facebook of how to "interpret" what your wife really means (like when she says, "Nothing's the matter," etc.) are PROOF that while some men may never have to encounter such behavior, MOST DO. They get the cold shoulder, etc. So let's work from the "rule" and not the "exception."
Everyone seems to be almost in a hurry to show how THEY would never act like this or that. Folks, good for us that we have good wives. BUT WHAT YOU FAIL TO ADDRESS IS THE REBELLIOUS WIFE. The Michal. The Jezebel. The wives that Solomon had that turned his heart.
THOSE are the ones we have to address. I don't care to hear anything else about how to treat a GOOD wife! We all know how to do that, I imagine. What we are asking is in the cases mentioned above, is it ever right to do anything more than pray and have a conversation? If it's already gone past that point, then what do you do?
Again, we are dealing with the REBELLIOUS WIFE. Not the fine Church of God wife that all of us have. |
Not to state the obvious, but I think the discussion originally was about the submissive wife, not the rebellious wife.
But since the topic has turned to that...if the wife is not submissive to the point of ruining and discrediting his ministry, and the husband obviously has no clue how to get their lives back on track, they need to go to a marriage counselor who understands the truth of God's Word but who also understands the games people play, etc. Unless something changes drastically, this extreme example of not being submissive will end in divorce.
It is not just the husband's job to control his wife and make her do something. Yes, he should attempt to help her see the error of her way and call her on the things she is doing wrong. If she doesn't want to change, all of his coercion is not going to make a lot of difference. In order for this marriage to succeed, the wife has to want to change her attitude and her actions. The more he tries to MAKE her, the more rebellious she will become. Again, it must be her choice to submit.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
10/27/15 11:44 pm
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| Carolyn... |
Aaron Scott |
A non-submissive wife is a rebellious wife. She is rebelling against the clearly stated Word of God.
A non-loving husband is a rebellious husband.
Either of these ways spells disaster.
We are talking about a wife being submissive. If she isn't, then something's akilter (I made that up--is it a word?). Now, her rebellion might not be like Jezebel's, but it's still rebellion, right? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
10/28/15 5:07 am
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| Re: Carolyn... |
Carolyn Smith |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | A non-submissive wife is a rebellious wife. She is rebelling against the clearly stated Word of God.
A non-loving husband is a rebellious husband.
Either of these ways spells disaster.
We are talking about a wife being submissive. If she isn't, then something's akilter (I made that up--is it a word?). Now, her rebellion might not be like Jezebel's, but it's still rebellion, right? |
What you've said is true, but I guess I find it interesting that instead of talking about what a submissive wife looks like, you have described what a non-submissive wife looks like.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
10/28/15 5:50 am
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Carolyn Smith |
What does a submissive wife look like? Does it mean having supper ready when her husband walks in the door? Handing him his coffee, slippers, and the remote as he settles in the recliner? Does it mean choosing to go to his favorite place for dinner instead of hers?
To me, submission means doing things like that out of love, not out of habit or because it's expected or demanded. Because I love you, I want to please you. I want to do things for you that make you happy or make you feel loved. I don't do it because I have to. I want to make you feel loved. I want to make you feel honored because I know you better than anyone else, and I know how to bring joy to your life.
Being submissive sometimes means making life choices that are not necessarily my desire. But because I believe you heard from the Lord in directing our steps there...and because I believe you love me and want what is best for our family...I will submit my desire to be here to God and to you because I love you and want to please you both. (Disclaimer: a husband and wife should be in agreement before making such a life choice. Women do hear from God, too.)
Being submissive means sometimes choosing things you would not necessarily choose, because of your desire to please God and your husband, whether it is a simple choice or a difficult one.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
10/28/15 6:16 am
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| Carolyn...amen. |
Aaron Scott |
Just as we are to be submissive to Jesus, we do many things out of love...and some we do because we know that He would want us to.
I certainly don't feel like going to church every service, but as the pastor, I am entrusted to be faithful.
Very simply, submission has easy things...and hard things.
Submission does not mean that the man DOMINATES. The problem with the whole "submission" thing is that people define it as servitude or something very nearly like slavery. It shouldn't be. As a child I was submissive to my parents, but it was not slavery at all! It was safety, it was protection, it was provision, it was instruction, etc.
My parents certainly wanted to make me happy also.
If submission is done correctly, I think all involved are the better for it. If done incorrectly, only one side (if any) gains. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
10/28/15 8:28 am
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John Jett |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | What does a submissive wife look like? Does it mean having supper ready when her husband walks in the door? Handing him his coffee, slippers, and the remote as he settles in the recliner? Does it mean choosing to go to his favorite place for dinner instead of hers?
To me, submission means doing things like that out of love, not out of habit or because it's expected or demanded. Because I love you, I want to please you. I want to do things for you that make you happy or make you feel loved. I don't do it because I have to. I want to make you feel loved. I want to make you feel honored because I know you better than anyone else, and I know how to bring joy to your life.
Being submissive sometimes means making life choices that are not necessarily my desire. But because I believe you heard from the Lord in directing our steps there...and because I believe you love me and want what is best for our family...I will submit my desire to be here to God and to you because I love you and want to please you both. (Disclaimer: a husband and wife should be in agreement before making such a life choice. Women do hear from God, too.)
Being submissive means sometimes choosing things you would not necessarily choose, because of your desire to please God and your husband, whether it is a simple choice or a difficult one. |
Thanks for that illustration Carolyn. On the other side of that scriptural coin we have the husband's command to love his wife as Christ does the Church. Funny how some men imagine that picture to be Christ standing over the church giving orders and threatening them if they don't behave. I'm pretty sure it looks more like the "giving" part of the scripture. As a matter of fact the article above pretty much shows exactly the opposite of that in the "I'll take this away, that away, won't do this, or that" attitude. I'm pretty sure the way to get a wife to submit is not to do that junk, any more than the way to get a husband to "love and give himself" wouldn't be to trash the house, spend the money and withhold the sex. I love how God's way works. If I'm being a jerk and my wife starts doing the things that are frankly, awesome, then I immediately realize the jerkiness in me and turn to the love and giving that I'm supposed to do. Visa-versa, if I start with the love and giving, seldom does that not work out well.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her[/b] |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/28/15 9:38 am
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| Childish Christians |
Cojak |
I was working practically 24/7 repairing an old house as a parsonage. Building a new church, I received a letter asking if I remembered the BSA presentation I had agreed to, now 70 miles away vs the 10 miles I had expected. It was all about me. I forgot it was HER birthday. I could not understand why she was distant on our trip to the BSA conference. She, one of the most Christian Ladies I have ever known acted very childish, I had only forgotten her birthday, for heaven's sake. She pouted instead of saying, 'let's talk about this!'
She was right, and in the only way she felt like expressing it was to give me the cold shoulder, so she did.
She did not want an divorce, it worked, I was wrong more so than she.
I just thought about this, because no matter how mature we think we are, some of the best in this world, resort to pouting, and that is a fact.
Now to clarify, my wife expresses her love for me, she states that I am the head of the home, and believes it. We have been married going on 60 years but there are times BOTH of us are childish and pout!
That in no way addresses the OP, AND I have no idea how I would handle a 'rebellious' partner. One who intentionally would try to sabotage a ministry, or a business I was engaged in. In today's world, without Shariah Law, a divorce is on the horizon. 
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Posts: 24285
10/28/15 11:13 am
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| Re: Question to Aaron |
Link |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | Aaron,
May I ask the following question on your Facebook page?:
Aaron - on another forum you stated you thought it was in keeping with biblical principles for a husband to discipline his wife. Would you mind offering examples of how that discipline works with your wife in your home? Further, what are the specific issues you have found which necessitate you disciplining your wife? |
He did say he disciplined his wife did he? Just that it might be appropriate in some marriages. [/b] |
I don't recall him actually saying that he did discipline his wife...but if you say so. |
Type, meant to say "He didn't say he disciplines his wife..." Sorry about that Aaron.
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10/28/15 5:10 pm
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Link |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | And doesn't the famous Ephesians 5 passage start with, "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God..."? Somehow this part is never discussed. |
One interpretation I've heard of that is if you continue reading on this chapter and the next one, Paul tells who is to submit to whom, wives to husbands, parents to children (when it says 'obey your parents', and slaves to masters.
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10/28/15 5:13 pm
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Link |
| John Jett wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Carolyn Smith wrote: | | I have always contended that if a man would truly love his wife as Christ loved the Church, she would have no problem at all submitting to him. |
One problem with that is that women are fallen human beings. Jesus loves us perfectly already, but aren't there those of us who don't submit to Him perfect? Jesus loved the churches in Revelation perfectly, but there were churches that didn't submit to Him quite as they should. |
True, but husbands aren't called to "discipline your wives as Christ disciplined the church", unless I missed that somewhere. THAT is the problem with the first article is that it implies that you should force some submission on your wife. However, in my opinion, that is NOT what submission looks like, it IS what a bully looks like and likely what DIVORCE looks like as well. |
Just in dealing with people, even people who don't have to submit to you, you may at times have to stand up to other people who overreach their bounds. Like at work if you have someone who dumps work on you that they should be doing or won't finish part of the project on time, leaving your department in trouble, you may need to confront that person, even if they aren't 'below' you in the chain of command. Some of it is attitude. Some of it is confronting people, pointing out problems. Being too easy-going can be a problem.
Then if you are managing people, you may have to deal with this issues a bit more directly. If you manage people, you are responsible for their work. If you come to work and go to a meeting and one of your employees isn't there yet after office hours have started, and you come back from the meeting and he's sitting in your office with his feet popped up on his desk answering tweets on his I-phone, and you don't do anything about that behavior, no confrontation, no consequences, no nothing, and your office suffers, you aren't doing a good job as manager. Fortunately, most employees aren't that extreme. You aren't going to horse whip the guy or hit him, but there may need to be some sort of confrontation, discussion, maybe even consequences if the behavior continues.
A manager who lets this go on isn't being a good manager.
Just as a believer, if a fellow Christian falls into sin, there are times when you have to confront the sin. The passage that says to love your neighbor as yourself is right in that same passage where it says not to hate your neighbor in your heart, but rebuke your neighbor frankly lest you share in his sin.
So if a Christian man's wife doesn't submit to him, he needs to confront that, both as a man who is responsible for the functioning of his family, and as a fellow believer, assuming she is one, too, he needs to confront her.
The article mentioned a woman whose spending was out of control. For example, telling a wife like that that you can't go on vacation because she spent $1000 on shoes could be seen as 'punishment' or 'discipline', but it's also just natural normal consequences. I don't think of that as treating someone like a child, unless you give your kids a credit card and they can run up bills for $1000.
Some people probably won't like my example because it puts the man as the one in charge of the home, thinking of some sort of consequence for the behavior in my scenario. Isn't that the issue at hand, though? Isn't the wife supposed to submit to the husband, and isn't he to rule/lead his house well?
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Posts: 11849
10/28/15 5:25 pm
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| Re: Tom Sterbens... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | ... those who use their real names to offer "controversial" positions might do it only to be thought of as "visionary" or of being a "maverick." |
If Aaron is "Maverick".
Tom is Viper.
Trav is Goose.
NBF is Iceman.
Carolyn is Charlie.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
10/28/15 6:11 pm
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| Tom, why, no. |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | | So.....there is no one who ever takes on an issue who may simply be doing it - to the best of their knowledge - for the sake of the freedom that which that particular truth may bring!!!??? Is that what you're saying!!?? |
No, I didn't say that at all. Did I write that NO ONE ever takes on an issue for the sake of freedom, etc.? Of course, not. You have to know me better than that.
My point was that FOR SOME ISSUES, neither you nor I will come on this site and discuss some things under our real name...well, unless we say something like, "I have a friend who...."
Right?
So, NO, I am NOT saying that a person who uses their real name will not speak truthfully and freely in many cases. But for the SAME REASON that you might want confidentiality if you were getting counseling, you'd not use your real name to discuss some things. For instance....
"Tom Sterben here. I'm a pastor. But I'm a bit drunk right now. I slipped off the wagon after a tough service. I don't even know how many beers I.... Actually, I don't know if it's the beer or the cocaine."
Well, you see. (And I could plug my name in as well, but using yours is more fun.)
As for using one's real name to gain advantage, ever seen someone on FB or wherever, usually around GA times, expound at length about the immaculate perception of this or that executive, and how he believes God put him in office for just such a time as this? Or that we DESPERATELY NEED strong and steady mean like (fill in the blank here)? Sometimes it's a pen name ONLY because I think someone has a bunch of them and is using them all to make it seem like a crowd feels that way.
So, yes, people use their real names to try to gain advantage.
But my main point was just that real names can CHILL open conversation...and it can be used amiss. I did not mean anything by it other than, really, I don't speak as freely under my real name. I've erased more posts in the last couple of years than I did in the last previous 10. Why? I don't use a pen name anymore. To speak my mind is to invite hateful response to ME...and not to just a pen name that serves as a kind of buffer.
Shoot, I mentioned the other day on Excellent Pastor/FB that I didn't believe in Original Sin. The dear brother I was responding to thought I must have really missed it and so forth. He didn't mean any harm at all, but if someone was so inclined, they could sure make someone's life miserable by making an issue out of such things.
So please, my friend, don't take my words as a dig. I know that you and others have said things under your real name--and in person--that took a lot of guts. I applaud it. My main thing was the reply to your playful "threat" to post something on my FB that would have made it necessary to explain things a million times.
Love ya, friend. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
10/28/15 6:47 pm
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Cojak |
I gotta say, although I do not understand a lot of the undertow here, I sure am enjoying the post. This could be entertainment (as well as informative!) 
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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10/28/15 7:40 pm
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