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bradfreeman

Dave Dorsey wrote:

They can listen to these sermons, and I've listened to dozens and dozens and dozens of them from across the evangelical megachurch spectrum as I've come to these conclusions.

Could you provide me with the names of some of these mega churches you've listened to so I can listen to their messages too? Thanks!

Here's many of the largest:
Lakewood
Second Baptist Houston
Willow Creek
LIfeChurch.tv
Saddleback
Calvary Chapel
The Potter's House
Hillsong Church
Gateway
Northpoint
Shadow Mountain
FaithChurch.com
Prestonwood
Thomas Road Baptist
The Rock
Southeast Christian Lousville
Hopewell Missionary Baptist
New Birth Missionary Baptist
Green Acres Baptist

Which of these have you listened to and found guilty?
_________________
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My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/20/17 4:28 pm

THE LOVE OF GOD

Does anyone know what happened to Central Parkway in Cincinnati? It used to be a "thriving" and a prestigious church.

Friendly Face
Posts: 387
11/20/17 5:09 pm

Dave Dorsey

bradfreeman wrote:

Which of these have you listened to and found guilty?

Brad, if I thought there was a chance we'd see eye to eye on any aspect of this, I'd gladly engage you -- but I don't think that's the case, given the tone in your initial post in this thread, and your question of which of those listed I found "guilty". If I've misread you here, please forgive me. I'd encourage you to start listening to the messages from most any of the churches you listed and see if they are properly exegeting Scripture and preaching repentance from dead works and the forgiveness of sins. I hope that some are! I have not heard messages from at least half of that list.

I won't ask you to engage me when I won't engage you, but I will share a question for you to think about. Jesus and the apostles said there would be false teachers in the last days who would deceive many. The religious stone-throwers you mentioned earlier can't qualify, because as you pointed out, their churches tend to be fairly small. So, can you name a false teacher who is deceiving many? No need to answer, just something to think about.

[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 5:27 pm

Re: Something I've noticed...

Cojak

Aaron Scott wrote:

Back in the 80s (or so), the largest churches in Florida were Pine Hills (Orlando) and, Lakeland (W.W. Thomas' church), and University (Tampa). There were a few other large churches in the mix, too, I'm sure, but these come to mind.

While University has morphed into citilife (spelling?) and continues to excel, Pine Hills and others are now shadows of themselves.

I believe that some churches, through wise and strong leadership, can continually reinvent themselves and bring in a new generation, etc. But others, even though operated by the godliest of men, have to deal with things such as demographic changes, an aging congregation, the rise of other strong churches who "compete" for the same people, perhaps having a traditional style vs. the more current style that attracts, etc.

Poor business or financial decisions can take a church down. A pastor pulling out of the Church of God and taking many members with them. Or, God forbid, a moral failing that sends people scurrying away or at least to other churches.

All in all, I've come to think that churches have a "lifespan." A North Cleveland, who can attract MVP pastors, has solid financials, and also serves nearby Lee University, has a longer lifespan than most Churches of God. I would imagine that if we didn't count the outliers like North Cleveland or new plants, etc., we would likely find that most or our churches last 40-60 years before either closing or combining with another church.

I would guess that most churches above 70 years old are struggling and, even though they are still "alive," they are clearly on the way out. Some are one or two pastors away from severe decline. The next pastor will almost certainly not be like the old pastor...and that will drive people off. And even if they are like the old pastor, there will be something that doesn't sit well.

I have mulled this comment over and over in my mind. Does a church, as it is, have a life span. It actually seems so. Is it the AGE we are in? Has it always been so? I can think of a couple in NC that have defied the odds and are as strong as 60-70 years ago. But I can count too many that are not.
Have we attracted many people who NEED that 'little extra' maybe as was stated in a comment above, do they REQUIRE that theme park across town. Not meaning to be mean by repeating that, but I did know what the commenter was referring to.

You see, as a builder I CANNOT understand how instead of remodeling an old K-mart store, why Walmart must raze the entire structure and block then build practically the same 'steel building'. I cannot understand it, but it works for this society. Is it to ERASE the previous business history, or is it actually cost effective to Raze and build. (I am very experienced in building, and do not understand it.)

Building a new church and adding a neat name, HAS WORKED, but it doesn't always. What makes one work and the other FOLD under millions of debt. i.e. Celebration of Praise in Clermont, FL. (just to name one)

If there is a life span, can we anticipate that and inject new life. I know that is a no ending search. But thinking of it is driving me nuts. LOL

I hate to see so many faltering churches. I know I am aging out, I hate to think our churches are aging out. Because if they are, what many of you have supported and given your lives to, What my dad, uncle, BIL and cousins have sacrificed for, the COG, is also aging out! Can that happen?
Confused

Can 5 mega churches per state support the COG? Confused

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11/20/17 9:39 pm

bradfreeman

Dave Dorsey wrote:

I have not heard messages from at least half of that list.

Since you haven't heard from most of these churches. It isn't fair to generalize. Which ones have you heard a "false" message from?

Quote:

So, can you name a false teacher who is deceiving many? No need to answer, just something to think about.

What does it mean to be a "false teacher?" Let's use the Bible to interpret the Bible.

Paul identified:
False Jews - Rom 2:28,29
False brothers - Gal 2:4
False circumcision - Phil 3:2
False apostles - 2 Cor 11:13
False wonder - 2 Thess 2:9
False knowledge - 1 Tim 6:20

Peter identified:
False prophets - 2 Pet 2:1
False teachers - 2 Pet 2:1
False words - 2 Pet 2:3

John identified:
False prophets - 1 Jn 4:1

Each time an actual explanation of their teaching is offered, they are natural Jews, pressuring people to keep the law, teaching a works-based righteousness, denying Christ or that He came in the flesh - still selling the idea that we can "be like God" through our knowledge of good and evil.

I know many who teach works-based righteousness, who teach that God is selling blessings, righteousness and life to those who are willing to "pay the price." This man-focused message denies and detracts from what Jesus did, the price He paid in His flesh. They are not teaching the Truth, but a false message.

But individuals and groups of people (churches) who believe and confess that Jesus is Lord and show love to people can't be too far off.

You might also reconsider what the term "last days" might mean or "last hour" in 1 Jn.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 8:36 am

in agreement with Brad

wayne

bradfreeman wrote:

Dave Dorsey wrote:

I have not heard messages from at least half of that list.

Since you haven't heard from most of these churches. It isn't fair to generalize. Which ones have you heard a "false" message from?

Quote:

So, can you name a false teacher who is deceiving many? No need to answer, just something to think about.

I will speak of the CoG churches that I believe Brad is speaking about. The new "mega-churches" are preaching a soft, acceptance, feel good kind of message and I know this is upsetting to those who believe we should preach hell fire and brimstone messages. I agree, these messages are soft and there is not much to them but compare them to some of our "old-school" churches that preach everything is sin.....when you attend a church that preaches this way, you feel constantly defeated. I remember these churches and they really turned me off to Christianity.
I remember when I was truly saved, the first bible I was given was an NIV bible. Old Lort, you would have thought I was sinning because I was reading an NIV bible! I heard how I was reading a book written by satan worshippers and on and on and on....but, reading the NIV gave me more of a hunger for more of God's word so, on my own I switched to the KJV and then the NKJV and the NLT. I was reading the Word on my own but had I listened to all the hard-liners I would have stuck to the KJV, not understood what I was reading and had to rely on someone to interpret it for me.
I said all that to say this, these churches have a place in the grand scheme of things. They are bringing the people in and giving them God's word(maybe not all but most). Our church has witnessed this ourselves, these folks get to a place where they want more and will start looking for more of God. Instead of knocking them we should work along side them, not compromising out beliefs but work with them to grow these folks.

Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
11/21/17 9:05 am

Dave Dorsey

bradfreeman wrote:

Since you haven't heard from most of these churches. It isn't fair to generalize. Which ones have you heard a "false" message from?

Brad, your list is not exhaustive. I've listened to messages from several churches not on your list and several churches on your list.

Quote:

I know many who teach works-based righteousness, who teach that God is selling blessings, righteousness and life to those who are willing to "pay the price." This man-focused message denies and detracts from what Jesus did, the price He paid in His flesh. They are not teaching the Truth, but a false message.

This is really interesting to me, because in my opinion, this is the core place where evangelical megachurches (including several on your list from which I have listened to messages) miss it in their preaching. They preach Jesus as an example and Scripture as principles, and challenge their congregations to strive to put those principles into practice in their lives so they can live more Christlike lives. This is law and a burden that is too heavy to carry.

They do not preach the law so that their congregations may come under condemnation, and thus realize their need for the free gift of righteousness in Christ Jesus. They do not preach the hopelessness of works-based righteousness and the contrasting free gift of righteousness for everyone who believes in Christ. This would be the proper preaching of law and gospel. Instead, they just preach the law -- a striving and driving to be more like Jesus through principles and moral lessons. I'm listening to an evangelical megachurch message about the necessity for us to change literally at this very moment (from a church on your list!) that couldn't be a better example of this. IMO, if I had to name a single unifying way in which evangelical megachurches distort the gospel, that would be it. So your position here is particularly fascinating to me in light of the statement you made above.

[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/21/17 9:06 am

Nature Boy Florida

Brad makes faith into a work.

If MAN exercises enough faith - he gets all healing, wealth, etc... needed.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
11/21/17 9:11 am

bradfreeman

Nature Boy Florida wrote:

Brad makes faith into a work.

If MAN exercises enough faith - he gets all healing, wealth, etc... needed.

And where did I say that?
Faith is resting in the One who finished the work.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 9:29 am

bradfreeman

Dave Dorsey wrote:

Yes! This can be a false message. But this message is pervasive and not exclusive to any particular size church. There is nothing wrong with letting people know what love looks like or how it behaves so we can respond to the Spirit's leading in that direction - Paul did this over and over again. The error is to suggest that our behavior gains us blessing, or righteousness or life. Again, I'd like to know which churches, on or off the list I gave, who are the basis for your opinion.

Quote:

They do not preach the law so that their congregations may come under condemnation, and thus realize their need for the free gift of righteousness in Christ Jesus.

No one should preach a message that brings people under condemnation. It's a fool that thinks he can sow a seed of condemnation and reap a harvest of righteousness. There is no condemnation in Christ. If you're preaching Christ, you're not preaching condemnation. Even proper preaching of the law is to see Christ pictured and prophesied in it.

Quote:

They do not preach the hopelessness of works-based righteousness and the contrasting free gift of righteousness for everyone who believes in Christ.

Which churches?

Quote:

I'm listening to an evangelical megachurch message about the necessity for us to change literally at this very moment (from a church on your list!) that couldn't be a better example of this. IMO, if I had to name a single unifying way in which evangelical megachurches distort the gospel, that would be it. So your position here is particularly fascinating to me in light of the statement you made above.

The error you ID is not exclusive to mega churches. It is pervasive in ALL denomination...especially the COG.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 9:39 am

Dave Dorsey

bradfreeman wrote:

No one should preach a message that brings people under condemnation.

Check out Romans some time. Smile

The preaching of the law is necessary to those who believe their works are sufficient for righteousness and that they do not need a Savior. Only once we have concluded all under sin, and under the judgment that brings condemnation, can we joyfully share the good news of the free gift that brings justification.

It is only after we recognize, despite our delight in God's law and our desire to perform it, how wretched our own attempts at righteousness are that we can see the necessity of Him who delivers us from that body of death, and whose work for us allows us to declare that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Him.

[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/21/17 9:50 am

Old Time Country Preacher

bradfreeman wrote:

individuals and groups of people (churches) who believe and confess that Jesus is Lord and show love to people can't be too far off.

How "far off" must one be to be "too far off?"

Herein lies the essence of the issue, brad. Just because a group/individual/organization uses the term "Jesus" and "shows love to people" in no way confirms they are propagating truth.

The Mormons believe in Jesus and reference him as Lord, and are very loving and philanthropic. But their sacred shorts (holy undergarments) ain't gonna git em to heaven.

The Shriners believe in Jesus and reference him (among others) as Lord, and do great social good in their hospitals. They invest mega hours raising funds for the hospitals. But ridin round in em little red golf carts in a parade ain't gonna git em to heaven.

Whether large, medium or small, any size church can deviate from truth. Dave's point, with which I concur, is that many (not all of course) of the mega-churches are mega in number because of a generic, watered-down message. Seldom, if ever, in some of these churches is a message delivered on conviction of sin, repentance, holiness, purity, living according to NT principles, self-denial, bearing one's cross, etc. I've listened to many sermons from a few of them and have never heard such issues addressed. Indeed, these issues can't be the topic of every message or all preaching; however, these truths are as much "the Gospel" as John 3:16.

Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/21/17 10:00 am

UncleJD

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

I think this verse sums up the "formerly large church" problem best.

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/21/17 10:20 am

bradfreeman

Old Time Country Preacher wrote:

Whether large, medium or small, any size church can deviate from truth. Dave's point, with which I concur, is that many (not all of course) of the mega-churches are mega in number because of a generic, watered-down message. Seldom, if ever, in some of these churches is a message delivered on conviction of sin, repentance, holiness, purity, living according to NT principles, self-denial, bearing one's cross, etc. I've listened to many sermons from a few of them and have never heard such issues addressed. Indeed, these issues can't be the topic of every message or all preaching; however, these truths are as much "the Gospel" as John 3:16.

If you'll read Dave's criticism, it is of teaching the Bible and Jesus' life as "principles" to apply so that we can "be like Jesus." Apparently, you agree with this type of preaching, not Dave, on this issue. I agree with Dave that the message that mixes human works and Jesus' work as the recipe for salvation is error. I just don't agree that mega church have a corner on this message. Apparently, it's also preached in small churches in Pikeville. Laughing

OTCP, you would do well to learn what the word "Gospel" means. It means Good News. FYI: Good news is not bad news. It is the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and what Good News that is for us who believe it.

You don't have to preach ANY of the topics you've addressed in order to be saved. The truth is not an "issue" or a topic, it's a person - Jesus.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 1:40 pm

bradfreeman

UncleJD wrote:

Yes! And we all know that ear-tickling preaching is anything that draws a crowd! Laughing

Sound doctrine must be the message that empties churches. Laughing

Sound doctrine is the Good News of the cross and the resurrection - the message of the finished work of Jesus.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 1:45 pm

Dave Dorsey

bradfreeman wrote:

I am talking about the watering down of the gospel. This occurs when the reason for the necessity of the good news (our willful sin and God's wrath and judgment against it) is not preached, it occurs when Christ's substitutionary work is reduced to a series of motivational principles for living a better life, and it occurs when people are not challenged to examine their lives to see if there is evidence of Christ's work of regeneration within them.

Preaching about NT principles in the context of the gospel is fine. Ephesians 1-3 talks about the gospel and Christ's work on our behalf, and Ephesians 4-6 talks about what Christ's work should be producing in the lives of believers.

You have been born again as a result of Christ's work for you, when He took your place and bore the wrath of God that should have been the punishment for your sin and violation of God's laws, and gave you His perfect righteousness in exchange. So don't let sexual immorality or impurity or covetousness be named among you -- that's what's proper among God's saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you can be sure of this, if those things are present in your life, a work of regeneration has not occurred in you.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 11/21/17 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/21/17 2:29 pm

bradfreeman

Dave Dorsey wrote:

bradfreeman wrote:

No one should preach a message that brings people under condemnation.

Check out Romans some time. Smile

No, I totally get that the Law is the message and ministry of condemnation.
The Law just isn't the Gospel and isn't the power of God unto salvation.
Paul's message in Romans 1-3 was simply to let the self-righteous know that we ALL need a Savior. As Paul said in Romans, Abraham didn't need the law to find righteousness...just faith.
The guy in the back of the church in Luke 18 isn't confused - he knows he's a sinner. It's the tither that needs Romans 1-3 (See Luke 18).

Here is a FB quote from a preacher:

HERE'S A GOOD WORD FOR SOMEBODY:
When someone has dug a hole, has thrown you in it, and they are actively shoveling dirt on you in an attempt to bury you. Don't obsess over it. Don't engage on the same level.
Instead, do these two things:
1. SHAKE OFF THE DIRT.
2. STEP UP.
Eventually, you will rise and stand on a mound of dirt and walk right out of the insults and the attacks.
After Joseph emerged from the pit and arose to the second most powerful position in all of Egypt, he said this to those who attempted to bury him.
-------
"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done..." GENESIS 50:15-21
Like

Is this the kind of principle - preaching you're referring to?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/21/17 2:35 pm

UncleJD

so back to the OP, what is the cause of all of these "formerly large" churches?

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/22/17 10:02 am

Dave Dorsey

UncleJD wrote:

so back to the OP, what is the cause of all of these "formerly large" churches?

Maybe I can derail this thread in a whole new way. Laughing

I'm sure most are familiar with studies demonstrating that one person can only have relationships with about 150 people. That's widely regarded as a key limiting factor in church growth materials, from what I have seen, and there is a lot of focus on those materials in "breaking" that barrier with systems or whatever else that make people feel connected and involved.

The problem is, people don't just need relationships with other believers. They don't just need to be connected to a community group and a serving team or whatever else. They need a pastor. They need a shepherd who knows them and spends time with them and knows what's going on in their life and has a relationship with them that allows for encouragement, discipleship, and so on.

So my theory is that many of these churches become smaller because the people realize they aren't connected at all (e.g. one pastor, bad systems) or they realize they're connected, but not in a meaningful way to a pastor (e.g. one pastor, good systems). This is a huge argument in my opinion for having a plurality of pastor-elders. It's fine if one is kind of the first among equals and takes the bulk of the leadership and teaching role, but the others should be bona fide pastors as well. People should feel that they are deeply connected to pastoral care at the church even if they are connected to one of the non-lead pastors, and I think that's possible in a plurality of elders model, and indeed would go so far as to say that's the biblical design and intent.

[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/22/17 10:22 am

Cojak

Dave Dorsey wrote:

UncleJD wrote:

so back to the OP, what is the cause of all of these "formerly large" churches?

Maybe I can derail this thread in a whole new way. Laughing

My dad was a good pastor, every church he pastored grew. When his congregations reached 150-200 he ALWAYS said, time for the birth of a church. Most of the time it worked.
Dad never had an assistant, maybe the churches can thrive with good assistants. In our home church the assistant has been carrying the bulk of the load for a long time. BUT folks still want and need (IMHO) contact with THAT SENIOR pastor. Of course that is an old man's view. Embarassed

Very good points DD Thumb Up

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