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Nature Boy Florida |
There has been an explosion of grief over the pastor that took his life.
Why does this resonate so much more than the other 122 Americans who take their lives each day?
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/28/18 9:45 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I think it’s just so hard to imagine—he seemed to have everything going for him, beautiful wife and kids, a good church, an obviously loving and caring group of elders who forced him to take a sabbatical, etc. It also seems to be an implicit denial of the Christian message of victory in Christ. |
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Posts: 12817
8/28/18 10:27 pm
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Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I think it’s just so hard to imagine—he seemed to have everything going for him, beautiful wife and kids, a good church, an obviously loving and caring group of elders who forced him to take a sabbatical, etc. It also seems to be an implicit denial of the Christian message of victory in Christ. |
The reason in a nutshell QW, you hit it. It is absolutely baffling. We can understand joe citizen down the street, but NOT God's man!  
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jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
8/28/18 11:02 pm
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georgiapath |
I think you're right.
The pastor here had one of the three largest churches in the area, was loved by everybody. He actually did it at the church (after having lunch with his youngest son, at school) one day. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7604
8/29/18 4:43 am
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| In the case of the ... |
Mat |
In the case of the pastor in CA, it might be good to look at the history of the church and his rise to being the Senior/Lead Pastor.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
8/29/18 6:03 am
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| Re: In the case of the ... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: | In the case of the pastor in CA, it might be good to look at the history of the church and his rise to being the Senior/Lead Pastor.
Mat |
Are you referring to the fact that he took over for his Dad that died young and felt the pressure to keep it going?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/29/18 7:22 am
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| Re: In the case of the ... |
Mat |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Mat wrote: | In the case of the pastor in CA, it might be good to look at the history of the church and his rise to being the Senior/Lead Pastor.
Mat |
Are you referring to the fact that he took over for his Dad that died young and felt the pressure to keep it going? |
That could be one of the issues he was struggling with. I noticed his mother was on staff and the story of the church's beginnings are given. Carrying a legacy can be a heavy burden on a son/daughter (ask most PKs) combined with the inherent issues of sustainability for large/mega independent churches (of course Joel Osteen is one of the exceptions).
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
8/29/18 8:54 am
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Da Sheik |
I don't really think the megachurch is God's design. Some will disagree and that's perfectly fine. I just think it's way too much of a burden on one man. I realize most megachurches have plenty of staff to help out with the daily stuff, but it's still a huge burden.
As to the initial post:
We mourn celebrities. When Aretha Franklin or Prince passes on, the world stops turning. But hundreds are dying and entering a Christless eternity each day. Therein lies the real tragedy. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
8/29/18 9:58 am
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| Re: In the case of the ... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Mat wrote: | In the case of the pastor in CA, it might be good to look at the history of the church and his rise to being the Senior/Lead Pastor.
Mat |
Are you referring to the fact that he took over for his Dad that died young and felt the pressure to keep it going? |
That could be one of the issues he was struggling with. I noticed his mother was on staff and the story of the church's beginnings are given. Carrying a legacy can be a heavy burden on a son/daughter (ask most PKs) combined with the inherent issues of sustainability for large/mega independent churches (of course Joel Osteen is one of the exceptions).
Mat |
Not sure most people give Osteen credit for doing what he did...following a legacy with no real experience himself.
But as for this preacher - he seemed to have 2 problems.
Anxiety attacks and depression.
Most folks with anxiety attacks (such as myself) do not want to kill themselves.
It's the depression - that must have been some deficiency chemically in his body - that will get you to kill yourself.
I am just speculating here - but I have often seen spiritual people believe that they aren't showing much faith if they take medicine for an issue like that - and go off of it on their own - and those medicines, when you go off of them - make you MORE likely than ever to harm yourself...very dangerous to go off of them on your own. I have seen that happen more than once.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/29/18 10:04 am
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| Re: In the case of the ... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | I am just speculating here - but I have often seen spiritual people believe that they aren't showing much faith if they take medicine for an issue like that - and go off of it on their own - and those medicines, when you go off of them - make you MORE likely than ever to harm yourself...very dangerous to go off of them on your own. I have seen that happen more than once. |
This is an excellent observation. Psychiatric drugs don't always cause suicidal ideation (I take an SSRI to help manage OCD, and I've never experienced it, for example), but it can be a side effect and is often amplified when a medicine is being started or stopped, especially if it is stopped quickly as you said.
In general, getting help is the #1 most effective way to survive mental illness. We need to promote a culture where ministers feel comfortable confiding their mental health struggles to others, including their denominational leadership and laity. That's a huge ask. We like to talk about how mental illness should be viewed and treated the same way a physical illness would, especially in regard to rejecting faith preaching and positive confession as a treatment for mental illness -- but like any entrenched stigma, it's easier for us to say than actually do.
Mental illness is very debilitating all on its own; it's even harder to overcome the inertia and get help when one is concerned about the impact it will have on them. It's definitely getting better, and I'm hopeful it will continue to do so.
We can all play a part in making it better by being aware of our friends, family, and fellow ministers and being willing to ask them if they're okay and being supportive of an effort for them to get help. |
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Posts: 13654
8/29/18 10:38 am
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| Things to keep in mind... |
Aaron Scott |
Success on the outside does not mean a person feels himself successful on the inside. You can put on a mask for the public--one that looks happy and successful--yet feel you are a failure.
You can love your family...yet still feel hopelessness.
Further, when a person is suffering from a form of mental illness (say depression), he can preach God's deliverance to others...and yet feel like he is going under himself. If those who committed suicide were in the right frame of mind, they almost certainly wouldn't kill themselves. So I would say for us to be cautious about this somehow being a denial of Christian victory (even though that might indeed by the case), since a person who is in such a low frame of mind is almost certainly not able to stand strong until full victory comes.
I would hope all of us, no matter what we're going through, will remember that lots of people would be happy to exchange their problems for ours.
Millions of people in the 3rd World see us as blessed almost beyond measure.
And EVERYONE in hell would like to be us, since for us there is still hope. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
8/29/18 11:01 am
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| Pastor who died |
zjudah1 |
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| Whether a student or a pastor ... |
Mat |
Whether a single student in a large high school or a Lead Pastor in a large church, the spiritual influence of suicide is real and powerful. Beyond the troubling questions raised about why the person would do such a thing, is the concern that it triggers others to emulate. In the case being discussed, the concern is not just limited to the tragic death of someone who seemed to have all the resources to overcome such impulses, the concern is for the community of the church he led. Inherent to leadership is influence and the primary role of a pastor guide the congregation into a deeper relationship with the Lord Jesus. The reason we in minister focus on size of a church is that it serves a metric of how many people we can influence.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
8/29/18 11:26 am
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Carolyn Smith |
Someone on FB posted a clip of this young pastor's last message, and in it he talks about the anxiety attack he had a few months before, in which he wound up in the hospital, and afterwards, his church got him to agree to a sabbatical. He was talking about how out of it he was, saying strange, off the wall things he had no memory of later. It makes me think there was no way he was in his right mind when he committed suicide.
He was reaching out to people, accepting help, and really, doing all the right things to deal with the depression and anxiety. Aside from how heart-breaking it is, I think that is one of the things upsetting to so many.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
8/29/18 10:40 pm
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| EXcept for the grace of God.. |
roughridercog |
There goes any of us.
The pressures of life and ministry are real whether you pastor 25 or 2500. Plus brain chemistry can cause the thinking processes to become distorted. The church needs to recognize that mental illness is just as much a reality as physical illness.
Shall I speak my mind?
The church's answer to mental illness has been "pray through" and if you continue to have trouble, it's your fault because you don't have enough faith or you're not really saved.
This is putting the sufferer under condemnation rather than faith.
When I was young and knew everything, I would have just assumed that the pastor who ended his life was in hell. Since then I have learned a few things about depression, brain chemistry, and more importantly the grace of God.
Yesterday, I was talking to another minister who said that the pastor must have backslid.
When asked why, he said it was because the man couldn't pray through and get victory over the demon of depression.
This individual then put on his glasses and began to read a newspaper.
I asked him if he could read the newspaper without his glasses.
He responded that he couldn't read without them.
I told hi. That he must be backslid because he couldn't pray through and get victory over a demon of blindness.
He retorted that his was a physical condition, not demonic oppression.
I reminded him that our minds are connected to our bodies. If the chemistry of the body and brain is skewed, it can cause an individual to do strange things.
Condemnation is not the answer. That only compounds the problem of mental illness.
What happened to the pastor who committed suicide?
Not my department. He faced a God rich in grace.
Know what? I'm old and I don't have all the answers any more. I just trust the hard answers to God.
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Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
8/30/18 7:22 am
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| I had a family member die because of bad lungs.... |
caseyleejones |
He is not in hell because an organ malfunctioned. The brain is an organ as well. If the man was saved, then he is in the hands of a loving Father as I type.
Any man to do what he did with a loving family and church around him had some severe mental disorders......or better put...a malfunction somewhere in his brain. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
8/30/18 7:59 am
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| Thanks |
Cojak |
Again I want to thank you guys here on Acts. I like to read that pastors (some) DO understand. Now I am looking back 50-55 years and wonder about depression. Back then most thought like RR just stated in his comment. Aaron hit the nail on the head too. DD, NBF, DaSheik and Mat also brought light in. CLJ and RR's points cannot be ignored.
We can never go back, but many years ago i did consider suicide. I spent many hours trying to figure a way my family would not know, it had to look like an accident.................. Silly as it was, it probably prevented a suicide.
Is there a difference in depression and being 'disappointed in yourself.' Feeling you have let your friends, family and especially you daddy down?
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jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
8/30/18 8:32 am
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bamaboy |
One of the main reasons people are so affected by this particular suicide is the fact that pastors/preachers haven't been transparent at all for years. I know is is hard to feel comfortable telling people your vulnerabilities but at the same time if you are showing a fake life on stage, the people think everything is great so you shouldn't be having issues. Real people have real issues, fake people have more.
If you act like your life is perfect, which most pastors do in front of their congregations, they are less likely to talk to you when they need help because they don't feel you can relate. |
Member
Posts: 47
8/30/18 8:35 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I watched a few minutes of him preaching his last sermon. Of course hindsight is 20/20, as they say, but I got the definite impression from watching and listening to him that he was in the midst of a breakdown. Maybe everybody had gotten used to him being that way. It is so unbelievably sad.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 8/30/18 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 12817
8/30/18 9:40 am
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JLarry |
Very interesting comments. I also grew up believing anyone who took their life would go to hell. Like others here I have learned better.
It seems to me that mental illness is on the rise. I wonder why.
Many years ago my father (a farmer) had a disastrous year as a result he lost the farm that had been in his family two generations. He told me he sat on the steps of an old farm house with a gun in his hand. He said: "if I knew I would not go to hell I would have ended it". I am glad at the time he thought that.
If any of our readers suffer from sever depression, please get some professional help. Don't try to conquer it on your own.
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No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
8/30/18 10:24 am
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