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 What does hyper-grace mean? 11 questions |
bradfreeman |
Does hyper-grace mean all your sins were taken away at the cross?
Does hyper-grace mean that God remembers your sins no more?
Does hyper-grace mean sin is no longer our focus and no longer has dominion over us?
Does hyper-grace mean Jesus is our righteousness, our sanctification, our redemption and He is the same, yesterday, today and forever?
Does hyper-grace mean that the obedience of One man makes me righteous?
Does hyper-grace mean all fear has been cast out by His love and we now come boldly into the holiest place?
Does hyper-grace mean my consciousness, my mind, my eyes, my focus are on the author and finisher of my faith and not me, my sin and my weakness?
Does hyper-grace mean we are no longer dying to sin or carrying our crosses, but we have been crucified with Christ, have died to sin, been made alive with Christ and are now seated at rest with Him, hidden in God?
What does hyper-grace mean to you?
Does it mean no more daily confessions of sin?
Does it mean no more fear of punishment?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/3/17 8:01 am
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| Is hyper-grace the same |
Ernie Long |
as once saved always saved?
I have a man in my church who is a baptist (he tolerates us Pentecostals) and he believes once saved always saved and I ask him about those who claimed salvation, but committed some type of sin. His reply is that they were never saved to begin with. He tells me there is no way for some one to lose their salvation and I tell him he is correct, they don't lose it, they throw it away.
No one sins by accident, just like no one accepts Christ by accident. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
1/3/17 8:36 am
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| Michael Brown wrote a book about |
brotherjames |
The error of "hyper grace" here are a couple of pull quotes from his book:
Hyper-Grace Quotes
Simply stated, there is not a single verse anywhere in the Bible that pronounces us already forgiven for our future sins (meaning, sins we have not yet committed). Not one verse. Nowhere. Not even a hint of such a concept.
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message
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It’s clear that our present sins need present forgiveness, not for the purpose of salvation but as part of our relationship with the Father.
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message
like
Again; thousands are deceived into supposing that they have “accepted Christ” as their “personal Saviour,” who have not first received Him as their LORD. The Son of God did not come here to save His people in their sin, but “from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). To be saved from sins, is to be saved from ignoring and despising the authority of God, it is to abandon the course of self-will and self-pleasing, it is to “forsake our way” (Isa. 55:7). It is to surrender to God’s authority, to yield to His dominion, to give ourselves over to be ruled by Him. The one who has never taken Christ’s “yoke” upon him, who is not truly and diligently seeking to please Him in all the details of life, and yet supposes that he is “resting on the Finished Work of Christ” is deluded by the Devil.1
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/3/17 9:29 am
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| Re: Michael Brown wrote a book about |
bradfreeman |
| brotherjames wrote: | The error of "hyper grace" here are a couple of pull quotes from his book:
Hyper-Grace Quotes
Simply stated, there is not a single verse anywhere in the Bible that pronounces us already forgiven for our future sins (meaning, sins we have not yet committed). Not one verse. Nowhere. Not even a hint of such a concept.
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message |
Here's a hint, a verse or 20.
Did Jesus put away the sin of the world at the cross? Heb. 9:26
Did Jesus take away the sin of the world at the cross? John 1:21
Did Jesus remove the iniquity of us all? Isa 53:6
Did Jesus become sin and die it away? 2 Cor 5:21
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
like
Where is any indication that this forgiveness is limited in any way?
Where is any indication that we only access redemption one apology at a time?
Jesus is not in Heaven waiting for an apology, He never asked for an apology, a confession or a promise to change on earth as a condition of forgiveness...not once. He is simply waiting on us to believe. Here's how Jesus forgave sins...every time.
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 7:48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Luke 23:34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
Jesus never conditioned forgiveness on an apology, a promise or a confession.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Do you get baptized every time you sin so you can access more forgiveness?
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
What is the "redemption" "we have" through His blood? The "forgiveness of our trespasses".
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
1 Jn 2:13 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
| Quote: | It’s clear that our present sins need present forgiveness, not for the purpose of salvation but as part of our relationship with the Father.
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message
like
Again; thousands are deceived into supposing that they have “accepted Christ” as their “personal Saviour,” who have not first received Him as their LORD. The Son of God did not come here to save His people in their sin, but “from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). To be saved from sins, is to be saved from ignoring and despising the authority of God, it is to abandon the course of self-will and self-pleasing, it is to “forsake our way” (Isa. 55:7). It is to surrender to God’s authority, to yield to His dominion, to give ourselves over to be ruled by Him. The one who has never taken Christ’s “yoke” upon him, who is not truly and diligently seeking to please Him in all the details of life, and yet supposes that he is “resting on the Finished Work of Christ” is deluded by the Devil.1
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message |
Where is Mike Brown's scripture to support his view that each time you sin your relationship with the Father is damaged?
Jesus saved us from our sins. Mike Brown is the one who believes He has left us "in them".
“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” Heb. 8:12
“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” Heb 10:17
2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Rom 4:7
If He won't remember our sins anymore, won't take them into account, won't count them against us and if love keeps no record of wrongs, how does our sin affect "our relationship with the Father"?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/3/17 3:07 pm
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| How about this then Brad |
brotherjames |
I know where you're coming from and we need not be in condemnation however though Jesuspect paid the price for all of our sins past, present and future without repentance and dealing with our present actions as they may occur (since we continue to sometimes sin) should we not ask for forgiveness if we have done something that displeases our master today?
All the promises of forgiveness have to do with sins we have already committed, since God is dealing with us in space and time, and He only forgives us for what we have actually done. It’s as if you have a debit card with a prepaid amount of one million dollars, but the account is not charged until you go out and use it. In the same way, the forgiveness of all of our sins has been prepaid, but that forgiveness is not applied in advance. It is applied as needed. Already
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/3/17 3:42 pm
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| Re: How about this then Brad |
bradfreeman |
| brotherjames wrote: | | I know where you're coming from and we need not be in condemnation however though Jesuspect paid the price for all of our sins past, present and future without repentance and dealing with our present actions as they may occur (since we continue to sometimes sin) should we not ask for forgiveness if we have done something that displeases our master today? |
I'm happy to consider any scripture you have that seems to support the view that we get forgiveness by asking for forgiveness each time we sin.
| Quote: | All the promises of forgiveness have to do with sins we have already committed, since God is dealing with us in space and time, and He only forgives us for what we have actually done. It’s as if you have a debit card with a prepaid amount of one million dollars, but the account is not charged until you go out and use it. In the same way, the forgiveness of all of our sins has been prepaid, but that forgiveness is not applied in advance. It is applied as needed. Already
Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message |
Is he just making this stuff up? Did he provide any scriptural support for each bolded statement?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/3/17 4:31 pm
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| Re: Is hyper-grace the same |
caseyleejones |
| Ernie Long wrote: | as once saved always saved?
I have a man in my church who is a baptist (he tolerates us Pentecostals) and he believes once saved always saved and I ask him about those who claimed salvation, but committed some type of sin. His reply is that they were never saved to begin with. He tells me there is no way for some one to lose their salvation and I tell him he is correct, they don't lose it, they throw it away.
No one sins by accident, just like no one accepts Christ by accident. |
When you think ill will...or do things for the wrong reasons....or wrong motives.....expressed pride in an area of your life....exhibit insecurities..... or attempt to follow the law....exhibit laziness....poor steward of your day..or fallen short by not treating your wife with respect.
Are these not all sins? What about the person who just gets saved but very rough around the edges? I know of a good many that got saved and still exhibited a rough lifestyle for a season and slowly reigned their behavior in....do they have a "special" grace?
The reason I say that is because we begin creating our own theology. Such as, those who just get saved have special or extra grace. Yet, I have heard more than one pastor spout off in anger and say things he should not have said. He sinned....right? Is he going to hell or is there that relationship grace going on that covers him. Sin is sin...right?
Then there is the doctrinal sins of omission and commission. It would be safe for me to say that if I spent a day with you, I could easily point out where you sinned whether it is omission or commission and on your way to hell.
My point......Grace is for the believer more so than the sinner. I need grace. I have fallen short many times today. There is a tendency to create unbiblical doctrines around this thing we call grace.
"Yes but....if we preach grace, we're afraid people will want to sin." Guess what?!?!?! People are sinning in the most legalistic churches. The more I learn about grace, the more I want to avoid falling short...but guess what....I still fall short but I know my relationship with the Lord is not based on what I do but what he did.
I enjoy your posts Brad. At least you use rightly divided scripture to back up your belief. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/3/17 9:01 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Good topic.
Great comments Casey.
I too enjoy a lot of what Brad brings to the table.
Would like to read some more comments from Bro. James.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/3/17 9:15 pm
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| Thanks Dean..... |
caseyleejones |
BTW, I don't believe that everyone is saved. I don't believe once saved always saved. I do know that I fell short today and missed it.
Also Brad.....I have asked you this twice and failed to write it down. Totally my fault. What top 3 books would you recommend on grace. I am reading a grace book by Andy Stanley. I also have all the Joseph Prince stuff. PM me if you have to ...THANKS |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/3/17 9:29 pm
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| Re: Thanks Dean..... |
bradfreeman |
| caseyleejones wrote: | BTW, I don't believe that everyone is saved. I don't believe once saved always saved. I do know that I fell short today and missed it.
Also Brad.....I have asked you this twice and failed to write it down. Totally my fault. What top 3 books would you recommend on grace. I am reading a grace book by Andy Stanley. I also have all the Joseph Prince stuff. PM me if you have to ...THANKS |
Thanks Casey,
I've read a few books on grace. I'm sure Andy Stanley's is good - haven't read it. Joseph Prince's are excellent - I've read 2. Andrew Farley has written a book called "Naked Gospel" - it's good.
Paul Ellis has a website called www.escapetoreality.org that is full of great stuff. 2 of my favorite Podcasters are Lynn Hiles and Bertie Brits.
I'd recommend pretty much anyone Mike Brown condemns...seriously.
As with most teachers, the guys I listen to will often hold some views I don't like a lot. Farley isn't charismatic enough for me. Prince, Dollar and some others still try to give CPR to tithing. But I eat the grapes and spit out the seeds.
Look for a message that puts Jesus in the center, not you.
Look for a message that focuses on what He did, not on what you do.
Look for a message that puts your faith and confidence in His performance, not yours.
Look for a message that keeps your eyes on Him, not you.
A very telling aspect of the mixed message is that it leaves the work unfinished. It ignores the verb-tenses in the scripture.
It leaves you always dying, not dead and having passed out of death into life.
It leaves you engaged, not married, not joined to the Lord and bearing fruit.
It leaves you going to Heaven, not seated there and hidden in God.
It leaves your sins being taken away one apology at a time, not put away at the cross.
It leaves you needing and being reconciled to God each time you fail, not reconciled to God at the cross.
It leaves you always needing to do something rather than believing something was done.
It puts you in an never-quite-finished work of redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation and blessing.
Jesus isn't redeeming, reconciling and putting away sin, He is seated at rest. It is finished. He did it.
Our sins have been put away, they aren't being put away. Heb 9:26; 1 Pet 2:24
We have been reconciled, we aren't being reconciled. Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18; Eph 2:16; Col 1:22;
We have been redeemed, we aren't being redeemed. Gal 3:13; 1 Pet 1:18
What we are doing is receiving or accessing this grace, this life, by believing the truth of all that Jesus did. Rom 5:3; Eph 2:8,9; John 3:16
Our message is this Good News.
Our message is this word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19
Those who hear and believe this message, received redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation, blessing and eternal life.
Those who don't are still under the ministry of condemnation, still in darkness, still being called unclean, adulterer, liar, swindler, etc., still in the flesh, still unrighteous and condemned already.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/4/17 7:36 am
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| In my opinion |
brotherjames |
the Message of Grace that is being promoted by Prince et al is in many parts good and takes care of the feeling of condemnation often manifested by far too many believers. However, it also leads far too many into the realm of OSAS. No matter what I do going forward, I cannot lose this Grace of God and therefore I feel no compunction to repent or change my ways. I'm saved. Period, end of discussion. But if that's the case what do we do with the following scriptures?
If Grace cancels out all future sins without asking for forgiveness, what then shall we say of these admonitions from our brother Paul? If we do the following and Paul says we cannot gain heaven as a result of our sins (present tense) how then does Grace cancel them out unless we do as Peter commended in Acts 2 – Repent!
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. — 1 Corinthians 6:18–20, ESV, You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. —1 Corinthians 7:23, ESV,
Last edited by brotherjames on 1/4/17 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/4/17 10:26 am
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| Also, Brad may disagree with Michael Brown |
brotherjames |
but there is some serious room for thought in some of his comments. The following is a compendium of some of my thoughts and Michael Brown's. I give him attribution but he and I think alike on this issue and I have written about it so I have added his comments into mine. If I had to err, I would err on the side of Grace but if we are not careful, we can lead many astray into OSAS in the process. I have seen this extreme Grace stuff pop up every 15 years or so and this new stuff is nothing new.
Food for thought:
ONE OF THE foundations of the modern grace message is that the moment we are saved, God forgives all of our sins, meaning past sins, present sins, and future sins. In fact, some hyper-grace teachers claim that God doesn’t even see the sins we commit as believers since He sees us as completely sanctified and holy in His Son.1 To back up this position up, they commonly quote the words of the new covenant prophecy spoken in Jeremiah 31:31–34 and repeated in Hebrews 8:8–12, culminating with these words: “For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more” (ESV, emphasis added), a phrase that is quoted again in Hebrews 10:17—“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” It is true that when Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that you and I and the rest of the human race would ever commit, from Adam’s first sin until the very last sin that will be committed on this planet. But that doesn’t mean God forgives our sins before we commit them. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. When the Lord says He forgives us and remembers our sins no more, He’s speaking of the sins we have committed at the time He forgives us. The New Testament is totally clear on this. As it is written in 2 Peter 1, the believer who goes backward spiritually rather than forward “is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins” (2 Pet. 1:9, NIV, emphasis added; the English Standard Version reads, “ … having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins”). What sins did God forgive when we asked Him to save and cleanse us? He forgave our past sins, our former sins, the sins we committed before we were born again. As Colossians 2 explains, when we put our faith in Jesus and became children of God, He canceled “the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (v. 14, ESV). The Bible says “He wiped away the bill of charges against us,” and the New International Version puts it this way: “Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.” The moment God saved us, He forgave us that debt—some scholars refer to it as an IOU—and then He brought us into a new and better covenant, one in which His laws are written on our hearts, and He remembers our sins no more (Jer. 31:31–34). So when we look to the Lord for salvation, He forgives every sin we have committed up to that point, and He even forgives us for who we are: lost, rebellious sinners. But He does not forgive us for our sins before we commit them. This is clearly stated in many passages, and it makes perfect spiritual sense as well.
Part of the new grace message is that we aren’t supposed to strive or work at being spiritual. “Jesus already paid the price,” they say, “and all you have to do is accept it. There’s no way you can add to what He’s done for you, and if you try to do so, you are mixing faith with works or grace with law. All you need to do is let the Lord do His work through you.” Some of this message is wonderfully true, but there are other parts that are not true—actually, there are parts that are missing, and those missing parts can prove fatal. It is true that salvation is a free gift and there’s nothing we can do to earn it. God forgives us and saves us based on His goodness, not our goodness, merit, efforts, hard work, or sacrifice. Jesus paid for our salvation in full on the cross, and we can only receive it as a gift, not as something earned. The New Testament is quite clear on that (Rom. 3:28; 9:31–32; Eph. 2:8–9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5, just to name a few). At the same time, the New Testament is equally clear that when we are saved—when our sins are forgiven and we become children of God—we belong to the Lord, and our life’s purpose is now to do His will. That’s why we call Him Lord: He is not just our friend, Savior, helper, and big brother. He is also our God, our King, and our Master. He is our Lord, and we belong to Him—literally. The Scriptures even tell us He bought us and actually owns us. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/4/17 10:31 am
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| Re: Also, Brad may disagree with Michael Brown |
bradfreeman |
| brotherjames wrote: | but there is some serious room for thought in some of his comments. The following is a compendium of some of my thoughts and Michael Brown's. I give him attribution but he and I think alike on this issue and I have written about it so I have added his comments into mine. If I had to err, I would err on the side of Grace but if we are not careful, we can lead many astray into OSAS in the process. I have seen this extreme Grace stuff pop up every 15 years or so and this new stuff is nothing new.
Food for thought:
ONE OF THE foundations of the modern grace message is that the moment we are saved, God forgives all of our sins, meaning past sins, present sins, and future sins. In fact, some hyper-grace teachers claim that God doesn’t even see the sins we commit as believers since He sees us as completely sanctified and holy in His Son.1 To back up this position up, they commonly quote the words of the new covenant prophecy spoken in Jeremiah 31:31–34 and repeated in Hebrews 8:8–12, culminating with these words: “For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more” (ESV, emphasis added), a phrase that is quoted again in Hebrews 10:17—“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” It is true that when Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that you and I and the rest of the human race would ever commit, from Adam’s first sin until the very last sin that will be committed on this planet. But that doesn’t mean God forgives our sins before we commit them. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. When the Lord says He forgives us and remembers our sins no more, He’s speaking of the sins we have committed at the time He forgives us. The New Testament is totally clear on this. As it is written in 2 Peter 1, the believer who goes backward spiritually rather than forward “is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins” (2 Pet. 1:9, NIV, emphasis added; the English Standard Version reads, “ … having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins”). What sins did God forgive when we asked Him to save and cleanse us? He forgave our past sins, our former sins, the sins we committed before we were born again. As Colossians 2 explains, when we put our faith in Jesus and became children of God, He canceled “the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (v. 14, ESV). The Bible says “He wiped away the bill of charges against us,” and the New International Version puts it this way: “Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.” The moment God saved us, He forgave us that debt—some scholars refer to it as an IOU—and then He brought us into a new and better covenant, one in which His laws are written on our hearts, and He remembers our sins no more (Jer. 31:31–34). So when we look to the Lord for salvation, He forgives every sin we have committed up to that point, and He even forgives us for who we are: lost, rebellious sinners. But He does not forgive us for our sins before we commit them. This is clearly stated in many passages, and it makes perfect spiritual sense as well. |
I think this understanding of what constitutes our "former sins" or "past sins" fails to account for our new birth and the fact that we no longer live in sin. When are in Christ, not in Adam or in the flesh or in the world or in sin.
Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
How should I consider myself? All sin is in my past. I am dead to sin.
How can we who died to sin live in sin? We have been raised to a new life in Christ. Paul said it best in 1 Cor 15:
1 Cor 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
Christ is risen and we were raised with Him. Our faith has worth. We are not in our sins, any of them. All of our sins, past, present and future are our "former sins" or "past sins" or the sins we used to "live in". There are many, but this passage from Colossians hopefully clears it up.
Col 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
We died. We died to sin and no longer live in it. We were living in sin, living in the world (see Col 2:20) "living in them", but now our life is hidden with Christ in God.
| Quote: | | Part of the new grace message is that we aren’t supposed to strive or work at being spiritual. “Jesus already paid the price,” they say, “and all you have to do is accept it. There’s no way you can add to what He’s done for you, and if you try to do so, you are mixing faith with works or grace with law. All you need to do is let the Lord do His work through you.” Some of this message is wonderfully true, but there are other parts that are not true—actually, there are parts that are missing, and those missing parts can prove fatal. It is true that salvation is a free gift and there’s nothing we can do to earn it. God forgives us and saves us based on His goodness, not our goodness, merit, efforts, hard work, or sacrifice. Jesus paid for our salvation in full on the cross, and we can only receive it as a gift, not as something earned. The New Testament is quite clear on that (Rom. 3:28; 9:31–32; Eph. 2:8–9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5, just to name a few). At the same time, the New Testament is equally clear that when we are saved—when our sins are forgiven and we become children of God—we belong to the Lord, and our life’s purpose is now to do His will. That’s why we call Him Lord: He is not just our friend, Savior, helper, and big brother. He is also our God, our King, and our Master. He is our Lord, and we belong to Him—literally. The Scriptures even tell us He bought us and actually owns us. |
Paul stated it quite simply when he described how a righteous man is supposed to live when He said, "the righteousness man lives by faith". Our fight is the fight of faith. Our walk is the walk of faith. We experience victory by faith. We overcome the world by faith.
Spiritual growth takes place in the mind. As strongholds of wrong thinking are pulled down, we win the war. As our minds are renewed, our lives are transformed. As we consider ourselves dead to sin, we find the ability to no longer let sin reign. As we set our minds on things above, we find the ability to consider the members of our earthly bodies dead to sin. As we know the truth, we experience freedom.
The Spirit produces fruit in us. We simply increase our fruit-bearing by hearing and believing the truth of the Gospel of Jesus (that how faith comes). We get off-base when we imply that our life, blessing, righteousness or anything else God has provided through redemption is earned or worked for. It's all free. It's all a gift.
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/4/17 11:48 am
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| You have hit on the problem Brad |
brotherjames |
You think you can live without sin after being born again. I know that is not the case. Do I lose my salvation if I sin after I accept Christ? No. Do I need to repent over every little thing that I might do that God might call sin? Not necessarily. But if God calls what I do sin and He brings it to my attention it would be appropriate to say "please forgive me Father, with your help I will change", wouldn't it?
I do not believe in entire sanctification. It is more than possible to sin after salvation. This is the crux of your problem or argument. Consider this:
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
To whom is Jesus speaking? The Church obviously. If it is possible to have your name blotted out of the Book of Life, then your name would have had to be in there to begin with. Ergo, you can lose your salvation and Jesus says to the church - REPENT! Ask for forgiveness and turn from your wicked ways. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/4/17 12:55 pm
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| Re: You have hit on the problem Brad |
Dean Steenburgh |
| brotherjames wrote: | You think you can live without sin after being born again. I know that is not the case. Do I lose my salvation if I sin after I accept Christ? No. Do I need to repent over every little thing that I might do that God might call sin? Not necessarily. But if God calls what I do sin and He brings it to my attention it would be appropriate to say "please forgive me Father, with your help I will change", wouldn't it?
I do not believe in entire sanctification. It is more than possible to sin after salvation. This is the crux of your problem or argument. Consider this:
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
To whom is Jesus speaking? The Church obviously. If it is possible to have your name blotted out of the Book of Life, then your name would have had to be in there to begin with. Ergo, you can lose your salvation and Jesus says to the church - REPENT! Ask for forgiveness and turn from your wicked ways. |
I like this BJ.
Looking forward to reading Brad's response.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/4/17 8:51 pm
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| Re: You have hit on the problem Brad |
bradfreeman |
| brotherjames wrote: | You think you can live without sin after being born again. I know that is not the case. Do I lose my salvation if I sin after I accept Christ? No. Do I need to repent over every little thing that I might do that God might call sin? Not necessarily. But if God calls what I do sin and He brings it to my attention it would be appropriate to say "please forgive me Father, with your help I will change", wouldn't it?
I do not believe in entire sanctification. It is more than possible to sin after salvation. This is the crux of your problem or argument. Consider this:
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
To whom is Jesus speaking? The Church obviously. If it is possible to have your name blotted out of the Book of Life, then your name would have had to be in there to begin with. Ergo, you can lose your salvation and Jesus says to the church - REPENT! Ask for forgiveness and turn from your wicked ways. |
I do not believe we can live without sin. I believe that the believer, even though he sins, does not live "in" sin. Paul said it this way in the chapter following the one where he said those who have died to sin, no longer live in it:
Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
We all find ourselves doing things we "do not want to do". But, as believers, it is "no longer" us. It used to be us, but we died to sin and were born again.
John (who wrote Revelation) said it this way:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
There is a part of me that is born of God, it practices righteousness - not my flesh, where sin dwells. That part of me does not sin, cannot sin, because there is no sin in Him and I am in Christ.
How do you practice righteousness? How does a righteous man live? By the law? No. By faith?
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
There is a part of me that needs to be purified, it practices sin, it is flesh and blood and will not inherit the kingdom of God, it practices lawlessness.
How does one overcome?
1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Do my works have to be perfect or do I have to overcome?
Our perfect works have never been our entitlement to Heaven or to sit with Him in His throne or to be clothed in white.
Rev 3:21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
John is talking to those who need to sit down "with Me on My throne", who need to rest, who need to cease from works and believe. Who is he who overcome? He who believes.
We aren't waiting to see if our perfect works qualify us to sit with Him. Our faith has made us overcomers. We are seated with Him right now!
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Our works are imperfect and always will be. That's not how we overcome.
The righteous man does not live by perfect works (or keeping the Law).
The righteous man lives by faith, overcomes by faith, sits with Christ by faith.
How does faith come? By hearing. This crowd in Rev was told to "hold fast" to what they had "received and heard"...to "repent" or "metanoia". To repent from reliance on righteousness by "dead works" and turn to righteousness by "faith in God".
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/5/17 7:04 am
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