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 The Necessity of an Educated Pentecostal Clergy: Excellent Article by Dr. Lee Roy Martin (L) |
Old Time Country Preacher |
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sheepdogandy |
Read the article.
Some interesting points.
Take a God called minister.
Put them through the School of Christ.
Turn them loose.
I enjoy reading about church history, the early church fathers, etc...
Pentecostal movement history especially.
There are a few excellent Bible (ministerial training) schools operating today.
Ozark Bible Institute for one.
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7307
5/12/16 7:31 am
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| You Mean Our COG Forefathers Were Wrong? |
FG Minister |
| When I was growing up in the south, every evangelist, and most pastors had a favorite line that would get the unwashed on their feet a hoopin and a hollerin. They would scream into the microphone with great passion and volume: WE DON'T NEED MORE EDUCATION, WE NEED MORE OF THE HOLY GHOST! Actually we needed both but were too dumb to admit it. Thankfully I did not believe what they said and earned my doctorate. I always loved it when they used the word "cemeteries" instead of "seminaries." We laughed and laughed, then amened them. I always wondered why 75% of COG congregations have less than 100 people on Sunday mornings. Hmmm. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
5/12/16 8:10 am
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wayne |
thanks OTCP for posting.
It was a very good read. As a third generation COG boy, I can see the need for education in our leaders and I can see why our members may think we don't need it.
I personally have a couple years of college but did not finish because money was an obstacle and I really didn't have anyone encouraging me to finish.
Without a formal education the good Lord has blessed me with a great job, good pay and a means to provide for my family - I am blessed. Also, I have been able to plant and grow a church to health in 8 years.
With that said, there are many times over the past 20 years I wished I had completed my education. It would have advanced me quicker in my job, it would have help me relate better to all people and probably given me more confidence when I really needed it. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
5/12/16 8:34 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
I like education myself.
But does South America need education for revival?
Does Africa?
Did the Holy Ghost outpouring at Azusa and North Carolina/Tennessee occur due to education?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
5/12/16 9:40 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Hey, Old Timer, I heard a feller named Pink said momma was gonna help build the wall, but Pink said we don't need no education. (No dark sarcasm in the classroom). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/12/16 10:58 am
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| Re: You Mean Our COG Forefathers Were Wrong? |
Ernie Long |
| FG Minister wrote: | | I always wondered why 75% of COG congregations have less than 100 people on Sunday mornings. Hmmm. |
Do you how many pastors of those congregations with less than 100 in attendance, have any type of education or not ?
You might be surprised the education most small church pastors have.
I have found that if one didn't attend Lee, graduate from Lee, or "knows" someone in Cleveland, then regardless of their education, you're not going to be high up on the list for churches running more than 100.
This remark isn't against Lee, just tired of the "good ol' boy" and the "you have to prove yourself to me" system.
I was attaining my Electrical Engineering degree when God called me to Pastor and I dropped out of Engineering School to go to Bible College, but being able to rewire a machine or creating an electrical schematic doesn't help much when it comes to Hermeneutics. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
5/12/16 1:19 pm
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| Re: You Mean Our COG Forefathers Were Wrong? |
DrDuck |
| Ernie Long wrote: | | FG Minister wrote: | | I always wondered why 75% of COG congregations have less than 100 people on Sunday mornings. Hmmm. |
Do you how many pastors of those congregations with less than 100 in attendance, have any type of education or not ?
You might be surprised the education most small church pastors have.
I have found that if one didn't attend Lee, graduate from Lee, or "knows" someone in Cleveland, then regardless of their education, you're not going to be high up on the list for churches running more than 100.
This remark isn't against Lee, just tired of the "good ol' boy" and the "you have to prove yourself to me" system.
I was attaining my Electrical Engineering degree when God called me to Pastor and I dropped out of Engineering School to go to Bible College, but being able to rewire a machine or creating an electrical schematic doesn't help much when it comes to Hermeneutics. |
It is most certainly true that Lee connections have always made a huge difference as to one's ability to receive appointments in the COG. Of this there is no doubt. But not every pastor, I have personally known over the years, who were pastors of the larger churches were Lee grads.
My home church had some great pastors and for years has been one of the largest in the state. Most never attended Lee and some did not have HS diploma while a couple had college and one had some Seminary. While the church flourished under most of them, one of its greatest surges came under one of the men who never finished HS. In fact, with one exception, the most rejected pastors in its history were the better educated and the preacher/teacher types. What Martin seemed to refer to as "non linear" preaching still is held in higher esteem than the teaching oriented type more associated with the more educated.
Upon my receipt of a Masters from our own Seminary a recent pastor of that same church told me bluntly (quote) "Now that you have it, nobody will ask you for it." He was right.
Martin's article is quite good but not spot on in my opinion. I obviously have a personal appreciation for education. But, Pentecost did not come to the impact it has made is still making on the Christian world primarily through education. And education is not as great a key to its forward movement and success as Martin would have us believe. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 755
5/12/16 4:44 pm
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| Re: You Mean Our COG Forefathers Were Wrong? |
Cojak |
| DrDuck wrote: | ...
Upon my receipt of a Masters from our own Seminary a recent pastor of that same church told me bluntly (quote) "Now that you have it, nobody will ask you for it." He was right.
Martin's article is quite good but not spot on in my opinion. I obviously have a personal appreciation for education. But, Pentecost did not come to the impact it has made is still making on the Christian world primarily through education. And education is not as great a key to its forward movement and success as Martin would have us believe. |
I like the comment DD! I too am for education, but enjoy it when a man of God can make me want to hear and know more. 
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
5/12/16 8:03 pm
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| Re: You Mean Our COG Forefathers Were Wrong? |
DrDuck |
| Cojak wrote: | | DrDuck wrote: | ...
Upon my receipt of a Masters from our own Seminary a recent pastor of that same church told me bluntly (quote) "Now that you have it, nobody will ask you for it." He was right.
Martin's article is quite good but not spot on in my opinion. I obviously have a personal appreciation for education. But, Pentecost did not come to the impact it has made is still making on the Christian world primarily through education. And education is not as great a key to its forward movement and success as Martin would have us believe. |
I like the comment DD! I too am for education, but enjoy it when a man of God can make me want to hear and know more. |
Agreed Cojak. Martin writes from a purely academic viewpoint. Say what you will, many, not all but a great portion, of academics seem to have a certain degree of disdain for those not in their grouping. I saw that in a number of those teaching at the Seminary. Or then, maybe it was just me feeling inferior. But if that were the case it would seem my observation would have to be universal. It is not. The most truly intellectual professors generally did not display such. It was the ones who seemed to have a bit more egotistical aura about them. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 755
5/12/16 8:38 pm
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Da Sheik |
| I don't yet have my Ph.D but I'm working towards it. For me it is a personal goal, not anything that I feel would advance me in church work. I am long in the tooth now and have no political aspirations. One thing that has always bothered me is the attitude most COG preachers have towards retirement. Many of my friends are financially destitute because they gave no thought towards the future. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/12/16 8:56 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
While I personally am not in complete agreement on all points with Dr. Martin's paper, it should be noted that he has actually served for over 25 years as a pastor in addition to his academic pursuits.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 5/13/16 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/12/16 9:05 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
One a the things the ole timer has noticed through the years is that lots an lots a fellers did indeed have a anti-education stance. For example, as FGMinister said of lots a fellers:
1. While preachin, all ya had to do was yell, "WE DON'T NEED MORE EDUCATION, WE NEED MORE OF THE HOLY GHOST!" to git a response.
2. If I had a dollar fer ever time I heard preachers while preachin use the word "cemeteries" when referencin "seminaries," and it was always as a putdown on education.
But, But, But...........
I've seen some a these same fellers git elected to a position in Cleveland, appointed as a AB, or some other position, an a few years later git awarded a honery doctorate, an these same fellers who had maligned, demeaned an made fun of education, they wore that "Dr" title like a badge a honor. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/12/16 11:29 pm
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Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | ... One thing that has always bothered me is the attitude most COG preachers have towards retirement. Many of my friends are financially destitute because they gave no thought towards the future. |
I can understand the situation, since my dad did not plan well for his future and he was on the 'Old Retirement' system. But he thoroughly planned on a rapture before his retirement time.
He still lived well, preached any weekend he wanted because he was much in demand.
But today ministers have seminars and many sources to learn from. I know several ministers who would love to retire but CANNOT and hold their position as pastor well into their early 80's.
A pastor would do well to make some solid retirement plans. 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
5/12/16 11:33 pm
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| There is Another Reason to Obtain an Education |
FG Minister |
| Sure we should achieve an education for personal reasons, but there is another valid reason - it gives credibility to the church you pastor. When people know there is someone in the pulpit who has disciplined himself to attend classes and obtain an advanced degree (M.Div.), there is a level of respect. I have actually had people search our website to see what degrees I hold before ever attending the church. Many millennials want to be sure you are credible and they determine credibility by academic achievement. Is this the best measure of a preacher - NO! But if it gets them in the door and causes them to stay long enough for the Holy Spirit to speak to them, so be it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
5/13/16 8:03 am
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Change Agent |
In my early years I heard a lot of things in church that i'm now having to correct. Example, one Sunday we would hear a sermon about God loving us so much and the very next Sunday it was hell fire and brimstone. My view of god was distorted for a long time. It took setting under a very good preacher to get some of my prior teachings corrected. It's still happening today but not to me.'
Education does matter! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
5/13/16 11:26 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Change Agent wrote: | In my early years I heard a lot of things in church that i'm now having to correct. Example, one Sunday we would hear a sermon about God loving us so much and the very next Sunday it was hell fire and brimstone. My view of god was distorted for a long time. It took setting under a very good preacher to get some of my prior teachings corrected. It's still happening today but not to me.'
Education does matter! |
History is filled with very educated people who hold diverse and at times even heretical conclusions about scripture. I AM NOT ant-intellectual or anti-education in any way, yet education alone is no guarantee of hearing a sermon that will not be misleading. |
No one has suggested that "education alone" is a guarantee, and as with anything in life it can be misused, but education, whether formal or self-taught, is a facilitator of balance! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/13/16 12:03 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Change Agent wrote: | In my early years I heard a lot of things in church that i'm now having to correct. Example, one Sunday we would hear a sermon about God loving us so much and the very next Sunday it was hell fire and brimstone. My view of god was distorted for a long time. It took setting under a very good preacher to get some of my prior teachings corrected. It's still happening today but not to me.'
Education does matter! |
History is filled with very educated people who hold diverse and at times even heretical conclusions about scripture. I AM NOT ant-intellectual or anti-education in any way, yet education alone is no guarantee of hearing a sermon that will not be misleading. |
No one has suggested that "education alone" is a guarantee, and as with anything in life it can be misused, but education, whether formal or self-taught, is a facilitator of balance! |
OTCP - what, in your infinite wisdom, would you say was the first summons in scripture to educate oneself?  |
Tom, only God has infinite wisdom!
Inherent in the call to speak for God resides the necessity for a life of disciplined study! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/13/16 1:16 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | What/where in scripture would you say is the first summons to educate oneself? |
Don't got time right now to look fer the very "first" summons, but in general, heres a real good general statement bout the pursuit of instruction an how it should always be based within a theocentric paradigm.
Proverbs 1:7, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 18:15, The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/13/16 10:47 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | to reinforce the point of potential negative implications of "education and knowledge is the be-all, end-all," arguably, the first place in scripture where the issue of "knowing" is used to entice a more complete "world view," is in Genesis chapter 3.
Once again, I AM NOT anti-intellectual or anti-education, I am committed to be a life long learner...PERIOD. I am just representing the other side of the issue. |
I did indeed think of the Gen 3 context, however, this is not knowledge/education in the fear of the Lord, it is distorted view of knowledge or knowing. Genuine knowledge, biblical education, theological training is never put forth as a "be-all/end-all," but as a means to an end. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/14/16 1:07 pm
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