Actscelerate.com

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 **8/14/11 7:41 pm**

Tom has demonstrated openness and brutal honesty.

His financial house is having problems. No surprise in today's economy - Sevierville or Florida - both heavily affected by the real estate bust. And as the effect rolls downhill - Cleveland is also heavily affected.

Anyone reading Tom's post will realize that his heart is in the right place - and most people here have a charitable and gracious understanding of his church's plight.

We suspect, based on our other dealings with HQ officials - that their heart is in the right place - and deals that seemed like a good idea a few years ago (HQ expansion) - don't look so good in light of today's economy.

All we are asking is that the financial records, as promised, be opened for all to peruse. I would predict (outside of the few ungracious pastors that dog any church organization) that the same measure of graciousness and charity offered to Tom Sterben's church - would be offered to HQ and their plight. Except now everyone would understand better the decisions being made - and also assist with ideas for finding a way out.

All this work to hide the financial disclosure required by the GA can not be accomplishing anything productive.

Cleveland - tear down these walls!
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

The positive side of this discussion

Friendly Face Posts: 379 **8/14/11 11:34 pm**

I had planned to remove myself from further posting on this issue because I feel that I've said how I feel and that should be the end of my participation in this discussion.

I, however, changed my mind in light of Tom's comments.

I feel somewhat responsible for the latter portions of this discussion given my comments about "Good Faith Being a Two-Way Street".

Like Kyle said, we do have an issue with pastors diverting funds and failing to report tithe of tithe. And, in his defense, I do not believe that he intentionally was calling out Tom. If was he was like me, he had no clue who does or does not report.

God convicted me sometime ago about looking at church statistics. I found that I struggled pastoring the way God had called me, because I was too busy looking elsewhere.

We do, however, have men in Florida who openly break their covenant. It is a problem.

BUT...THAT ISN'T WHAT TOM WAS TALKING ABOUT...

First, I would like to thank Tom for being so transparent. His honesty leaves much to be respected.

Second, his situation should remind us that financial problems exist no matter the size of the church and that we're all in this together. I could not imagine the burden of a $20K mortgage each month. My prayers are with you and the congregation, Tom.

Third, Tom has explained his circumstances. He is still remaining faithful to his covenant and his accountable to the COG. By accurately reporting, he is remaining accountable. He may be behind on his TOT, but at least the COG knows about it. The COG knows how much he "owes", because he reported it to them. Also, it is clear that Tom is concerned about it.

Last, I know I use Bishop Stephens a lot, but the man has wisdom. He made a statement in our last ministers meeting about this issue. He said, "What do you want me to do about it? Is it better to remove the pastor and lose the congregation too or to work with the pastor and resolve the issue together?" Bishop is working with willing pastors in Florida to get their TOT in order.

This sounds like the wise approach. Though I believe in being accountable, if a Pastor is trying to maintain or catch up on this TOT, then a wise administration will work with him.

The problem is when pastors blatantly ignore their responsibility. In reading Tom's post, I do not believe he falls into this category.

and...btw...I think "n/r" just simply means that no report was received as of the 10th of the month.

This is Josh officially signing off from this post. Blessings to all.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com

Tom Sterbens

Acts-celerater Posts: 720 **8/14/11 11:55 pm**

The following comments were made about my friend, Tom Sterbens:

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **8/15/11 12:09 am**

From what I know (and from what I've experienced) if you send in your monthly church report without also sending in the corresponding checks, your church will be counted as not reporting, even though you did send the report.

Also, the state office will eventually send you a letter instructing you to pay the ToT/missions owed by your church--in the amounts matching the previous reports you supposedly didn't send in.

Re: Tom Sterbens

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1055 **8/15/11 12:09 am**

[quote="Jerry Lawson"]The following comments were made about my friend, Tom Sterbens:

[quote] What I have not seen, however, is integrity with our local pastors to honor their covenant with their tithe of tithe. We do not have a money problem, we have an integrity problem. Before looking for sawdust, take the plank out of your own eye.

we need to clean up our house first!

if we would spend our time pastoring our churches instead of trying to clean up Cleveland, then we would possibly have better results [/quote]

Anyone who would say such things about Tom Sterbens is only proving their own ignorance and immaturity. I pray that we can all finally reach a place where we can value one another as brothers FIRST, and disagree agreeably second.

I believe that every minister in the CoG, surrendered to a call of ministry to reach the lost and please God. No one did so to cause trouble and no one did it to prop up a fallen, barren denominational system. However, somewhere along the road we came to different conclusions about several issues. We will do well to remember what unites us and not attack one another for what divides us.

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.tv[/quote]

Amen!

Re: Tom Sterbens

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 2:31 am**

Re: A response of accountability...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **8/15/11 7:25 am**

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4989 **8/15/11 7:59 am**

I don't see how one issue has anything to do with the other. Whether a church is able to pay the tax on tithe does not allow the denomination to ignore the mandate of its highest governing authority.

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 9:14 am**

The point I was making is this. And I am in not referring to Tom. Again, I am not referring to Tom. But, what I have found out as a pastor is the people that give me the most problems, the ones that are the first to point fingers and look for some type of conspiracy do not pay their tithes. It isn't much different with the denomination. The very guys calling for "transparency" do not make an effort to keep their end of the commitment, and the ones that do lie on their reports. When we have churches that average over 300 in morning worship, but report $3000 on their tithes or churches that average 2,000 in worship and report $70,000 a month in tithes we have a problem.

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/15/11 9:25 am**

What if a church has more children, teens and college students than 'working families? What if 10% of the adults are out of work, which is close to the average. What if some pay quarterly or annually? In other words, HOW do you know without just plain old assuming? I say, run your own show and leave them alone.

If you are going to say "The very guys calling for "transparency" do not make an effort to keep their end of the commitment, and the ones that do lie on their reports," you should go ahead and name the names so they can respond.....like Tom did. Then, will you say you weren't talking about them either? Who are you talking about? And, my goodness, if you think ministers of the Gospel are lying, bring charges against them.

Just my opinion.

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 9:54 am**

Again, I am not referring to one specific pastor. There are many. I haven't even looked at the state statistics in a while, so I don't know what people are reporting right now, but do know this has been an issue in the past. I know for a fact, pastors tell their church to mark their tithes general fund, and I am not referring to any that post on this board. My point is we have a bigger problem than not knowing how much money the General Overseer makes.

Good Point Eddie!

Friendly Face Posts: 296 **8/15/11 10:25 am**

Kyle,

If you have truly found:

Friendly Face Posts: 254 **8/15/11 11:34 am**

I believe the financial integrity issue is huge and must be resolved in our church. I believe it will be resolved when leaders lead with the right heart the right way. Moody called it out best when he said what we need is holiness.

I believe we need Cleveland to lead, but I believe we need pastors and churches to lead as well. There is clearly a problem in our churches both corporately and locally when we are not open about what is happening.

Thank you Tom for your transparency and your desire for righteous leadership. I believe we can struggle and call for righteousness at the same time. I do it every Sunday I stand in a pulpit and preach. Help us God! Help the COG! We need a revival of holiness!

Thank you Kyle for your call to righteousness as well, but please don't forget broad across the board statements are difficult to defend in my humble opinion unless it absolute truth. We need each other.

Maybe we'd all do well to realize we are in this journey of faith together and a part of the same tribe (COG). I don't want Tom or Kyle attacked!

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 12:15 pm**

Bill Humphrey,

Best post of this thread! Thank you, and I agree 100%!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **8/15/11 12:54 pm**

Centralized government.

You gotta love it! Shocked

_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

thoughts

Belt Jerker Posts: 511 **8/15/11 3:25 pm**

I believe Kyle is correct in saying there is some in our church who lie about their reports. If you guys do not believe this is happening then you are extremely naive. With that being said, I have stated and will continue to say that if I were an overseer, I would want the GA to be followed. In order for the state offices to have some teeth with their ministers not following the minutes, the general church must comply if there is going to be any hope for trust.

I have said several things on various threads, so if this this is repetitious please forgive me.

1. The GA must be the final authority!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. I believe the request for full disclosure of the audit back in 2000 MUST BE FULFILLED!!!!!!!

3. I preface this statement admitting I do not know the wording of the GA minutes. I believe the end of year statements should be available to every ordained pastor in good standing. I do not believe everyone should be able to view this information without protocol. I believe a pastor can request this information for any member in his or her church and if the member is in good standing, then the report can be received. There has to be something in the minutes for this, but obviously it is not happening. I THINK, the mumbo jumbo in the back of the minute book is their explanation of whatever the minutes call for today. Again this is CHRIS MOODY THINKING ONLY. Before anyone launches missiles at me, understand I am only giving my explanation/interpretation of the tongues of the minutes(I am a traditionalist you know). I believe there has to be a measure from the GA for this to transpire, and an Executive Committee and council of eighteen willing to abide by the GA.

4. Kyle is correct in stating our churches must also get our house in order. I know Tom, and we have had some rather lengthy and heated discussions regarding the local church and its responsibilities. I have misread him on many occasions, but trust me guys, he is a covenant brother as far as his church reports are concerned. He is genuinely grieved and upset with his church's financial position. However, there are many who do not support the covenant of the local church reports. This grieves me, especially when we are asking for this from the top.

Everyone can make excuses, because all of our churches have a history. Bottom line is do what is right. Quit saying things like they have no integrity. We must be trustworthy. We must be loyal. We must be committed to trust. Our trust and love must be agape. If we desire our church to change then we as ministers must be willing to do the trustworthy deeds, which we agreed upon after accepting the license from the COG. I am tired of the field's excuses. It is time to get in the trenches for the sake of the mission of Christ.

5. I do not have any issue with the money or our leaders. My issue is the continual ignoring of the GA's voice. I have no motive. I really do not care to see the reports. I just believe the will of the GA should be followed.

6. I maintain my stance of holiness. We have to return to our roots of loving God, loving people, and loving each other. I will say it again, our casualness has made us casualties. I am not going there again today.

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 4:58 pm**

I know some may not believe me, but until this morning I had no idea what Tom's reporting status was. I was referring to ministers in my own state, Alabama, and not necessarily those who are vocal on Actscelerate. There are others whose intention is to cause trouble and sow discord. Tom is not one of those.

Until this morning, I have not looked at the statistics for Tennessee. I had no idea they were available to me until I went to the state website. I wish I had went there before making my post, had I known Tom's situation I would not had made it. Tom I am sorry for doing so. I do consider you a convenant brother who is a victim of a terrible economy. But for the grace of God, we would all find ourselves in the same situation.

I will continue to say that we do have a problem with churches not reporting, and churches lying on their reports. It's a big problem, and the biggest cause of our financial woes. Integrity starts within yourself. All I know to do is to do what is right. I consider all of you brothers and pray each of you recieve a great harvest.

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4989 **8/15/11 5:11 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2397 **8/15/11 5:15 pm**

How do you know I haven't confronted them? I said they do not all write on this board. I'm not going to give someone's name on a public forum. Do you really think that would be appropriate?

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4989 **8/15/11 5:19 pm**