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Re: What 30 years has taught me about pastoral appointments.

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **1/7/14 2:15 pm**

Re: What 30 years has taught me about pastoral appointments.

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/7/14 5:24 pm**

Pastor Appointment?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/7/14 5:28 pm**

OHIOBISHOPBILL wrote:

"Every pastor believes if he can just get his resume in front of the church or to some deciding board, they will want him "hands down" for pastor…

Every church believes if the overseer would advertise the opening, the list of ministers wanting to pastor their church would be overwhelming…

Neither is true…

Depending on the size of the church, most ABs work to find capable candidates and it is the responsibility of the AB to work with both the church and the available ministers. Churches feel that the AB works only to the advantage of the minister and the minister feel the AB favors the church…

There is no perfect system…

I do pray and enlist others to pray when we are filling a church in OneOhio…sometimes we miss it and I never promise a church that any appointment will work because you cannot predict chemistry between a pastor and the congregation. Resumes define history and biographical content but it cannot predict success. The unique DNA of pastors and churches is the elusive piece of the puzzle. ABs must learn their churches and pastors must understand their gifts…

A wise man once told me that if a man pastors 7 churches in his lifetime only 1 of those churches is likely to be a perfect fit…the rest will be an exercise in accommodation.

I think he's close to right."

Bill, I think you were very honest about your view of placing pastors in churches. It gave us great insight, however I think the current system could be improved by the presentation of resumes to churches. Some of the bad fits for a church could be narrowed down to a smaller number of pastors in a shorter time with the churches reviewing resumes. Also the church would have no problem with saying no to a pastor where you as an AB may have a harder time saying no to an unqualified pastor applicant.
Surely this would take pressure off the AB and put it on the church. BTW, what involvement do you let churches have in the pastor selection process in your state?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/7/14 5:45 pm**

In my experience, state overseers don't usually need to say no to a minister who's looking to be placed. They just say something like, "Sorry, but we don't have anything open right now. Thank you for your resume. We will keep you in mind."

Pastor Appointment?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/7/14 9:47 pm**

Quiet Wyatt wrote:

"It is my experience, state overseers don't usually need to say no to a minister who's looking to be placed. They just say something like, "Sorry, but we don't have anything open right now. Thank you for your resume. We will keep you in mind."

Some pastors I've seen sent to churches in the last year should have stayed in the AB's mind instead of being sent to try out. Laughing

Pastor Appointment?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/8/14 9:14 am**

I think the problems surrounding pastor appointment is like a lot of other things in the COG. It seems that we think we have to live with a system because it has always been done that way.

Change is something that most pastors will not talk about on a public forum. I can understand why they may be hesitant because I too have been told "we just don't talk about that" in local churches.

Church people and also AB's could be in better harmony if more thought could be put into streamlining the pastor selection process. I would encourage someone to write a proposal for the upcoming GA to get something positive moving in this area.

OhioBishopBill--a question

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **1/8/14 10:26 am**

Just for the sake of discussion, when you take a preference vote at a church, how is it handled.
Do you count the ballots in the presence of the board or elders? Or do you take them back to the office and count them.

The reason is ask is I know of one place where the AB went back to count the ballots, while he was back there, one of the men turned around and said, "How many of you voted for so and so? And how many for so and so?"

By the time the AB had come back, they had already figured how their vote had gone and the overseer came back with different results.

They called him on it and he became quite angry. He was going to appoint the candidate her preferred.

My question is: "Is there a set pattern for the counting of pastoral preference ballots that includes church representation in the tally?"
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Re: Roughrider

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **1/9/14 8:38 pm**

I always choose two people "randomly" and have them accompany me or the representative and while they cannot see the preference documents themselves, they do verify the counts. I usually do a first overall vote total and then if its close, I divide the vote between the members and faithful tithe payers and the others. If it's close the vote of the tithe payers and members count most.

If you try to deceive people, you will get caught. Better to be honest and stay in the right lane to prevent such an embarrassment as you describe. You can't fool church people, they are just so much smarter than ABs anyway!!!!! hahaha

Pastor Appointment?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/9/14 9:58 pm**

Good question roughridercog. Two pastors I know decided to swap churches. They called the AB and they concocted a plan to get the job done. Pastor 1 was thinking his church would not be very supportive so they decided to take a preference vote at his church and he would surely lose. The plan at Pastor 2's church was to tell the congregation that this pastor was getting a promotion and three names were submitted for the congregation to vote on which included Pastor 1's name.

The church where Pastor 1 was located voted around 98% to keep him. No one knows the outcome of the vote at Pastor 2's church because the votes were taken back to the AB office to be counted. This created a problem because the AB was afraid to move Pastor 1 because of the high preference vote. The only way to solve the problem was to let Pastor 2 stay at his church. The congregation of Pastors 2's church was totally shocked and confused when it was announced that Pastor 2 was staying. Questions were asked of Pastor 2 about what was going on. Pastor 2 refused to discuss what had happened with the congregation. The AB refused to tell either congregation about what was going on.

The true story finally came out later from one of the pastors involved. Why would the truth not have worked much better than a lie that caused confusion?

When the AB doesn't take a stand for truth it doesn't set a good example for pastors or church members.

No set way

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1607 **1/10/14 5:47 pm**

In my experience there is no set way that pastoral transition is handled in the COG. I've been in ministry 25 years and during that time have gone through the process 5 times. Each time was different.
The first time the overseer read my resume to the congregation (I was the only candidate), answered questions, and took a vote (I wasn't there). The next time it was a presentation of two resumes to the congregation, who after questions to the overseer voted (Again, I wasn't present at any point prior to their vote). The third time I was the only candidate considered, but met with the church to preach and do a q&a. The fourth time there were two candidates who each did a q&a and preached before voting. The 5th time I met first with the council for a q&a, then with the church for a q&a, and then came back to preach a service.
I've had success in every location with the churches experiencing growth. In three of the locations I led the church through building programs to expand facilities. Every church but one was left in better financial condition than when I arrived. That one was in strong financial shape when I arrived and when I left. I wouldn't say every situation was a perfect fit, but I will say that God has blessed our ministry in every situation we've been blessed to pastor.
I hear a lot about good old boy systems, politics, and unethical procedures in the transition/appointment process. I'm not saying those things don't happen, but I will say that in my ministry I've seen God use four different overseers to guide my ministry location, and I am convinced that I've been in God's will each time.
And I decided somewhere in the process that I'm serving a God that is bigger than the system- that helps me keep my sanity!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/10/14 6:23 pm**

The evolution of pastoral appointments...

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **1/11/14 12:23 pm**

I'm old enough to remember when ABs simply appointed pastors to churches by letter…the clerk would get a letter to the church appointing Pastor "A" to your church. At some point, the churches began to complain and revolt against the fact they had no voice and so a hybrid system was adopted by the Assembly that continues to vest the appointment of pastors in the AB but requires that the church be consulted as to their preference. Its a tricky situation as the AB still appoints and so the preference can determine or not whether a person goes. When I was in another state I recall a situation where the church wanted someone so badly and despite my several meetings, discouragement and outright public disclosure of the fact the man had closed three previous churches, they felt they had heard from the Lord. I gave in and appointed the man who left the church in shambles and it was a mess. My next meeting, the people said "just appoint who you think will work…" I did and that pastor remains there--not because I was smarter--but it just worked. My point is that the our system is tricky and churches do not have the power to "hire" the pastor and in reality the pastor "does not" work for the church as some think. Rather, he is under appointment from the AB who ultimately is responsible for his tenure.

We are not congregational truly but then we are not ecclesiastical either…we are somewhere in the middle. It's not perfect but better I suppose that more people are involved in consulting. My father tells that in former years, you went to the General Assembly to find out if you were moving or not and they read the appointments in a joint meeting of that state's ministers following the installation of the General Overseer.

That would be a hoot today! Huh?

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **1/11/14 1:11 pm**

OHIOBISHOP wrote:

The original Question was is there a better way

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **1/11/14 3:29 pm**

Quiet Wyatt gave some of his experience from his time in the AG. What he failed to mention about their process is that in most churches today in the AG the process is much more involved than it used to be. As a former District Presbyter and as a pastor who has changed churches once I can give a little more information on our process.

In the AG, many of our districts used to function like the COG. While theoretically every church was open to every pastor the Supt. really was the one who controlled what resumes a particular church board might get to see. Of those resumes they did see they could evaluate them any way they desired and then call on them to come and candidate for the church. usually, the church Board winnowed the resumes down to one (often pushed by the District Supt>) and then had them come preach for the church and then a vote was taken and if a majority of the members voted for that man/woman they were selected as the pastor.

Nowadays that still occurs to some degree but the larger churches do a very extensive search for their pastors. While they may be open to the District Supt's list of potential resumes, they will also solict on the internet and through various other networks. Once a good list of potential pastors has been established ,a search committee will send out a questionaire and solicit dvds or sermon cds to listen to and watch. After assessing those resume's, questionaires and sermons the list will be culled to say 4-5 people and the list is then given to the Board of Deacons. Often they will do a background check and send a delegation from the church to go and observe a candidate in action at his present church if he is still preaching. After all of that is done, they will select one and bring him and his wife into town and spend some hours with them personally and at dinner and observe his fit. Then they will get together and discuss that person. Then if they decide he is the one they feel is most qualified, they will ask him to come and preach to the church; present him to a vote and if the vote is strong enough (I have always counseled preachers NOT to take a church with less than 75% of the vote) they well elect him as their pastor (if he still beleives he should be there as well - God can soemtimes change minds). While this seems somewhat secularly done, the process is supposed to be bathed in prayer by all involved. It is certainly a more comprehnsive way than an AB just sending a person to a new church without any involvement by the church.

Just thought you might want to know.
_________________
Acts 1:8

Pastor Appointment?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/11/14 8:41 pm**

I appreciate MS7777 for sharing the process of the Assemblies. It seems to be a much more orderly and possibly faster way to get a pastor than just getting one pastor at a time to try out. My observation is that the AB has not shown any interest in matching the pastor trying out with the church. My only thought is the AB just can't say no to a person that doesn't fit at all.

OHIOBISHOPBILL, thanks for sharing more info on the current method of selecting pastors that was approved by the Assembly. This method is still not used by some AB's even though it was approved by the Assembly. Within the last three years I know of two pastors being switched to each others church. Both were having problems in their current church and the AB had the pastors swap churches without any input or vote by the congregation.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/11/14 9:18 pm**

I in no way misrepresented the way things work in the A/G, as MS7777 seems to imply. I am fully aware of the difference between how pastors are selected in A/G district churches vs. how they are in sovereign A/G churches, and I know the district churches are under appointment by the sectional presbyter.

My family goes back four generations deep in the good ol' A/G. My grandfather was an A/G pastor for over 40 years in addition to being elected by his peers as sectional presbyter for over 30 years. My first cousin is presently a sectional presbyter with the A/G and has served as an A/G pastor for over 25 years. My father and my uncle served as A/G pastors for 40 years each. I am not uninformed regarding how the A/G system works, nor do I have an axe to grind against the A/G. I just tire of hearing some in the CoG always pointing to the A/G system as if it is so far superior to the CoG system.

I have known of many, many cases over the years in which sovereign A/G churches took several months to select a pastor (even over a year in one case), and even still, the pastors they elected still did not end up being long-term pastors. In my view, a more congregational form of church government tends to make pastors subservient to boards and subject to being voted out if he doesn't keep the board and the congregation happy.

I am not saying the A/G system cannot work. I am simply saying it does not necessarily work better than the CoG system. It is certainly not superior to the CoG system, except in the minds of those who believe the local church board should rightly possess ultimate power over its pastor instead of an administrative bishop having authority over both pastor and church.

Maybe i need to take a writing

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **1/11/14 10:03 pm**

communication course or some people are a bit sensitive. I'm sure it's me. My point wasn't to disparage Quiet but just to inform you of a more comprehensive process many of our AG churches are using these days.

As to which one is better: having an appointment from AB would be great if he had your back and best interests at heart. However, many have complained about the GOB attitudes in the appointments. We have that in some District apponted churches too. Having the church decide in theory should open up the process to more people and to let the Lord decide who is the right man/woman for the job. As to Wyatts point about Boards running roughshod over pastors, it does happen (usually - not always - but usually to weaker, insecure men). However, in the AG, the Pastor once voted in becomes the chairman of the Official Board and cannot be voted out by the Board (they can make his life miserable I suppose). IF a majority of the congregation voted him in iti takes a majority to vote him out. If it gets to that point, he should probably leave anyway.

In our church's constitution, we have a clause that says I have to have a vote of approval every two years by the congregation. Nowhere does it say I have to leave if the majority disapproves of my ministry but if a majority did disapprove, I would surely want to a) know it and b) do something about it even leave.

BTW it took my church over 1 year to find me and it was totally a God thing. I planted and pastored my previous church for 16 years before coming here and have been here for the past 13 years. My Boards have respected me as a leader and my church (to the best of my knowledge) appreciates me. I have never been threatened by a strong Board or abused in any way.
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Acts 1:8

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/12/14 3:54 pm**

MS7777, I'm sure your kind heard had much to do with your long tenure. Good to hear great success stories.

Thanks

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **1/13/14 12:37 pm**

wasn't always easy but I have found perseverance wins in the long term. It takes years to develop and implement a vision. most ministers quit trying after 4 years to move onto what they think will be greener fields only to discover the grass isn't always greener or as Erma Bombeck once said " The grass is always greener over the septic tank." Think about it. The Word says to not get weary in doing well for we will reap if we don't quit (faint KJV).
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Acts 1:8

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **1/13/14 5:03 pm**

When I started in the ministry in the A/G, I was informed of an unofficial network of ministers who kept an updated list of open churches all over the country. They had the church size and other information about each church. Knowledge of the network was by word of mouth, not everyone knew about it.

The way it worked was that someone would give you the name of the closest contact to you, you would call that person with the names of the churches that you knew were open and as much information as you could get about them. In response, your contact would give you about three to four churches for every one you gave him. Of course, that all depended on how many were open at the time.

I got a lot of opportunities to candidate from that list and one of my pastorates came off that list.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania