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bonnie knox |
The distinction made with respect to privately speaking in tongues versus public tongues is whether or not an interpretation needs to be given. Whether private or public, the unknown tongue is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Even when in private, the utterance is given to our spirit by the Holy Spirit just the same as in public.
| Quote: | | Yes, as 1 Cor 14 says tongues are directed to God, However, as you rightly pointed out that chapter indeed the whole letter was written to deal with errors. So Paul is saying if you ALL are speaking/praying to God in tongues at the same time you are speaking to God and not edifying man. However the Gift of Tongues is different. It is an utterance given by God thru a man to be heard by men. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/8/16 4:34 pm
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| Absolutely correct |
brotherjames |
| Bonnie. Every utterance privately prayed or publicly given is given by inspiration of the Holy Ghost. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/8/16 4:49 pm
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Tom Sterbens,
I have listened to the first ten minutes of the message so far. I hope to listen to the rest when I get settled down doing some kind of wrote manual work that doesn't involve a lot of brain power later today.
Other than myself, I don't think I've ever heard anyone teach on the fact that the sign of tongues is a sign about unbelievers not believing. I see the sign as a fulfilled prophecy, and the prophecy that is fulfilled when unbelievers hear tongues is "and yet for all that, they will not hear Me, saith the Lord."
Some signs are fulfilled prophecies. Moses gave a sign that the ground would open up. It happened.
Anyway, one statement I'd like to comment on myself is that I Corinthians 14 is written to a congregation that might or might not have unbelievers.
I find it interesting that Paul says that if an unbeliever or unlearned come in. It might happen. It might not. We think we should bring people to church to get them saved. Paul went out to the synagogues, marketplaces, and other venues to evangelize.
There might be an unbeliever who comes in. But most of Paul's arguments have to do with the fact that tongues doesn't edify believers. His commands, or commandments of the Lord, in verses 26 and the verses that follow apply if unbelievers are present or not. Would you agree with that?
You pointed out that tongues has a role in intercession. If Paul would rather speak 5 words in the understanding than 10,000 in tongues.... if he were in the church... but yet he spoke in tongues 'more than ye all', then he must have spoken in tongues outside of church a lot.
Btw, I can't recall hearing anyone preach that we needed to speak in tongues in church because it is a sign to unbelievers. Maybe that's more common in the COG. I spent more time in the A/G, and some of my time in the COG was in Bethel in Indonesia, which seems to have some of the teachings you hear from Rhema on tongues. But I went to Bethany, so other church networks may differ somehwat.
In the A/G in the US, the official stance is that tongues in church are supposed to be interpreted. So they aren't officially into everyone speaking in tongues at the same time or individuals speaking in tongues without an interpreter. But the A/G is a little bit of a 'big tent' organization, so you might hear that in individual congregations. And I think it differs a bit by region. One A/G here locally tells everyone to pray in tongues, like Benny Hinn has done at his crusades.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/8/16 5:19 pm
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brotherjames |
I am A/G and a former District Official and although I encourage all of my congregation to nit only be filled with the Spirit but to pray in the Spirit as often as possible. It is perhaps the greatest weapon in our arsenal of spiritual weapons ( see 2 Cor 10). There are times I have encouraged the Body to pray in the Spirit during a Sunday service when I felt it appropriate which is not to say it happens all the time. However, in our services we often have times of worship where people sing in the Spirit.
Last edited by brotherjames on 1/8/16 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/8/16 6:35 pm
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| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Link wrote: |
There might be an unbeliever who comes in. But most of Paul's arguments have to do with the fact that tongues doesn't edify believers. His commands, or commandments of the Lord, in verses 26 and the verses that follow apply if unbelievers are present or not. Would you agree with that? |
Probably...  In fact I would prefer it that way (smile again)
The only problem I've wrestled with when considering that is it would sort of nullify his whole intent and passion in his exhortation. What I mean is, if he is saying, "Hey! Here's how you need to conduct yourselves spiritually (and functionally) when the unbelieving/ungifted are among you...." That would seem to make a functional distinction between gatherings where the unbelieving ARE and ARE NOT present. If he then turns around and offers a generic one-size-fits-all "liturgy" it would seem to undermine his original concern that there be a distinction. |
I see it more as Paul leading up to a 'generic one-size fits all "liturgy"'-- commandments of the Lord which allow a lot more variety and flexibility than what we think of as 'liturgy'-- using several streams of argument to lead to the same conclusion.
Much of the chapter is spent on explaining reasons for order when it comes to tongues spoken out in church, an order in which interpretation of tongues is very important. I see several reasons leading up to his instructions on speaking in tongues and prophecy that begin in verse 27. His statements about tongues edifying the speaker and prophecy edifying the church, his analogy about instruments giving distinct sounds, his statements about praying in the spirit and in the understanding, and his description of what happens if an unbeliever or uninstructed person attend and hear all speak in tongues v. prophesying are all arguments that explain why the commandments the Lord gave him make sense.
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As you know, several things are on the table when reading 1 Cor 14 - not to mention the fact that the largest gathering was probably around 35 - 40 people. (I read somewhere recently that archeologists confirmed the largest home structure in Corinth would have held 50 max). So that is a different dynamic. Navigating Spirit encounters with 50 or less if one thing...with 500 or 5000 it's quite another. |
If you can find a link or remember something about the source, I would be very interested in looking that up. Did they find Gaius or Stephanus' house? Did they find the meeting place from a later period of time (e.g. 2nd century)? Is it clear that at that time there was only one meeting place?
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I think there is an implied directive for there to be gatherings where the unbelieving are not present. As such we have sort of reinstated our "believers" gathering on the first Sunday night of the month. And I am pressing people pointedly on the active engagement and participation of the body - in keeping with 1 Cor 14:26-33 and beyond. I've never pointedly done that before, nor have I been any place that has. (I don't say that as being distinctive - just that I have not personally seen it modeled functionally). Last Sunday night was a sort of "on-the-fly" moderation of the worship gathering. I'll let you know what kind of disaster I have helped create. LOL
I'm really pressing in to things of the Spirit like never before - for reasons I could go into. Apparently I've somehow projected that I am attempting to limit things of the Spirit - when in fact, it quite the opposite. I simply want to be informed, as much as possible, by the Word of God and then.....leap. |
That sounds really exciting. It seems like with tongues interpretations, and prophecies, Pentecostals tend to have a set way of doing things-- during the song service, usually before the sermon. Sometimes the musicians sense its coming. I suspect aspects of this are more or less our culture in how we've fit these gifts in to our services around a Protestant liturgy that evolved out of RCC liturgy as modified by the Reformers. But in both of those traditions, 'clergy' was rather central. If we look in the New Testament, other people could teach and exhort, and that doesn't seem to fit into the Protestant liturgy that well.
There are different ways of doing things. I've seen the pastor-moderator way when Pentecostals do that. House churches can look more like chit-chat at someone's home, more of a discussion, though not all are like that.
The Local Church Movement has some unusual theological beliefs in certain areas, but the way they do their meetings is interesting. Anyone can participate. They kind of know the ground rules and it works for groups of at least up to 300, because one group I went to visit overseas was probably about that big. The Chinese group in Indonesia spent way too much time on Nee's hymns with people repeating lines after they sang them for my taste. I'd rather them do that with the Bible. I think they may have had what I've heard described as 'popcorn prayer' where anyone in the audience could pray a short prayer. There was also an 'open mic' time which doesn't have to be done with a mic in smaller gatherings.
It's not the only way, but it's one way to give people a chance to exhort or give a brief teaching.
I think there are a lot of good and Biblical things about the way Pentecostals prophesy-- making a distinction, for example, between a regular teaching and when the Spirit gives a specific message He moves someone to speak. But I Corinthians 14 also shows us that the speaker is to yield the floor if one sitting by receives a Revelation. I don't think I've seen an attempt to do this in a classic Pentecostal church. Maybe the Spirit just doesn't move that long in this way in those churches, or because we haven't given much thought or meditation to the verses, we haven't learned the underlying rules to actually follow it. People with this gift may need a little practice. Those 'sitting by' may need a little encouragement that they are allowed to speaker, and the speaker may need some teaching that he needs to pass the ball to another member of the team.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/8/16 8:48 pm
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| Tom Sterbens wrote: | Good stuff Link - always well thought, even when I disagree, and in this case I do not . You've given me more to think about.
I snagged this from Fee's commentary on 1st Corinthians, although it is not what I was referencing:
Second, archeology has shown rather conclusively that the dining room (the triclinium) in such homes would scarcely accommodate many guests; the majority therefore would eat in the atrium (the somewhat larger entry “courtyard”), which would still seat only about 30 to 50 guests on the average.
Fee, G. D. (1987). The First Epistle to the Corinthians (pp. 533–534). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. |
If Gaius ('mine host and of the whole church') had a larger than average courtyard, then they could have had a larger meeting.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/8/16 10:24 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Last - I have transparently stated on this forum a number of times I have no formal education - so I cannot blame whatever error I may stand in on the inadequacy of our seminary or Bible schools. |
I'm willin ta venture tha Ole Timer would applaud ya there for bein a man of integrity an all an not tryin ta claim ta be sommin ya ain't. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/9/16 3:56 pm
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| Re: Public Manifestations of the Spirit |
diakoneo |
| brotherjames wrote: | I have a serious question to which I would like some serious answers.
My question is: In your churches, do you have during your main services (Sunday AM, Sat. Eve) do you have people speaking in tongues, interpreting those tongues, Prophetic Utterances, Words of Knowledge. Not concerned with praying for the sick but looking more at Utterances (Oral Gifts).
Yes, but not enough.
Second part: If you do have them, how do they manifest and when and how are they received by the congregation.
Usually tongues and interpretation.
At differing times. Either in an altar service or after singing.
Third part: Have these manifestations caused the church any problems?
Only problem I ever had was when someone (who thought she was in the Holy Spirit) stood up and interrupted the preaching with a "testimony." It was obvious to everyone that she was out of line and I have never had that problem again.
Thanks for your responses. I am doing a survey within our denomination on a similar track. |
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/10/16 2:37 pm
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| Thanks |
brotherjames |
| My thread got a bit hijacked, which was fine but didn't help my survey much. I was going to start over in a new post. If anyone would like to add their info here I would appreciate it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/10/16 3:09 pm
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| had one of the movements yesterday |
wayne |
I stood in the pulpit yesterday to start the service, I could immediately feel something in the atmosphere. We gave announcements and brought a lady forward who asked for prayer. Before we began to pray, I turned and looked at our worship leader and asked him if he could feel that. He had a look of, I'm not sure.
This woman who has 2 auto immune diseases took some coaching to get her in the altar. She was racked with pain and could barely stand. We surrounded her with ladies and began to pray for her. She was crying, moaning, moving around like she was in pain. She snorted, at times looked like she was going to throw up, looked like she was going to pass out, asked for water and was sweating a ton. At one point I could see some of our leaders getting worried about what they saw and admittedly, I did too but I could feel God telling me to have faith and wait. I turned to our leaders and told them what God had told me. For the next 10 to 20 minutes more we continued to pray and then all of the sudden she fell forward onto her knees leaned forward in to a prayer position and then stood up!!. She started stretching, leaning backwards and forwards and started moving her arms around. She yelled out - my pain is gone!!!
The Spirit was so thick that while this was going on - we had a dad who was a drug addict and a daughter who proclaimed to be a lesbian come to the altar. Wow again!!! The Spirit was so overwhelming them that this girl could not stand and she had a look of, what is going on on her face. She began to cry as did her dad. Dad began to speak in another tongue and the girl fell to her knees confessing her sins. We ended up baptizing her immediately after service.
Oh my Goodness. Brother James, Not sure what you can get out of this but thought I would share.
Last edited by wayne on 1/11/16 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
1/11/16 8:37 am
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| Awesome wayne |
brotherjames |
In Acts 13 vs 2 it says while the church was ministering to the Lord the Holy Ghost spoke / moved. I think if we would allow it a bit more often and not be uncomfortable during pregnant pauses and if we were in church to minister to the Lord He would minister back to us more often. Unfortunately most people and their pastors think that the church is there to minister to their felt needs. I think if we will minister to and wait on God He will take care of the felt needs and more.
Good for you for waiting and resisting the trends and look what God did! Thanks for sharing. Isn't this what should be happening in our churches after all? Not saying every week necessarily but who knows? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/11/16 9:51 am
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| agreed |
wayne |
I am of the opinion that we have try to mass produce these events over the years and because of our trying to manufacture we have created a false version of what happened at our church yesterday.
This false version has had the tendency to turn people away from the Holy Ghost and when they hear of it they laugh like it's not real and thus prevent themselves from receiving something amazing from God.
Bro James, we do need more of these events but we have to allow God to move when He wants to move. Stay prayed up, fasted up, read up and praised up so when the Spirit enters the room we know who He is and we readily acknowledge Hi and allow Him to do what He wants to do.
These 3 people will not soon forget the day they had an encounter with the true Holy Ghost of God. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
1/11/16 11:39 am
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| Re: had one of the movements yesterday |
diakoneo |
| wayne wrote: | I stood in the pulpit yesterday to start the service, I could immediately feel something in the atmosphere. We gave announcements and brought a lady forward who asked for prayer. Before we began to pray, I turned and looked at our worship leader and asked him if he could feel that. He had a look of, I'm not sure.
This woman who has 2 auto immune diseases took some coaching to get her in the altar. She was racked with pain and could barely stand. We surrounded her with ladies and began to pray for her. She was crying, moaning, moving around like she was in pain. She snorted, at times looked like she was going to throw up, looked like she was going to pass out, asked for water and was sweating a ton. At one point I could see some of our leaders getting worried about what they saw and admittedly, I did too but I could feel God telling me to have faith and wait. I turned to our leaders and told them what God had told me. For the next 10 to 20 minutes more we continued to pray and then all of the sudden she fell forward onto her knees leaned forward in to a prayer position and then stood up!!. She started stretching, leaning backwards and forwards and started moving her arms around. She yelled out - my pain is gone!!!
The Spirit was so thick that while this was going on - we had a dad who was a drug addict and a daughter who proclaimed to be a lesbian come to the altar. Wow again!!! The Spirit was so overwhelming them that this girl could not stand and she had a look of, what is going on on her face. She began to cry as did her dad. Dad began to speak in another tongue and the girl fell to her knees confessing her sins. We ended up baptizing her immediately after service.
Oh my Goodness. Brother James, Not sure what you can get out of this but thought I would share. |
WOW, that was awesome!
Thanks for sharing! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/12/16 11:52 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Last - I have transparently stated on this forum a number of times I have no formal education - so I cannot blame whatever error I may stand in on the inadequacy of our seminary or Bible schools. |
I'm willin ta venture tha Ole Timer would applaud ya there for bein a man of integrity an all an not tryin ta claim ta be sommin ya ain't. |
An once agin, Miss Bonnie is spot on Tom.
No preacher needs to walk with his head down because of a lack of "formal education." But if he is just too lazy an undisciplined to study on his own, then he's gotta reason.
Dr. Ray Hughes once wrote (this is not a verbatim quote, but from memory) that every preacher is required by God to avail himself/herself of every opportunity to further his/her training, education, etc. He said for some this would be formal academic degree programs, for others it would be a life of continuing education via personal reading/research/study, for not all preachers have the same level of opportunity (for a host of reasons such as location, finances, etc.), but that every preacher had the responsibility to "be his best" for God.
Honestly, I aint never heard you say or read where you wrote that you had no formal education. But at don't make a bit a nevermind to God or the ole timer. Be ya best, study with all ya heart, pray an love Jesus/people.
Just don't claim what ya aint got, or go git one a them worthless sheepskins from a mill. Good thing, Tom, is you aint doin neither one.
So yes sir ree bob, the ole timer is applaudin ya. REAL LOUD too. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/13/16 1:10 am
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Eddie Robbins |
It's interesting to read the take on this subject from several people. I was thinking about how each has an opinion and how it would look if we had 10,000 ministers within one denomination, the Church of God, for example. Can you imagine all of the different opinions within one church on a subject that defines the church? It's the subject that separates us from most all other denominations, yet, on the one subject that the church is known for, there are hundreds of different opinions.
By the way, it is not all bad. It means that you are studying for yourself and not just following along church lines. However, be careful not to cross certain lines or you'll find yourself standing before a board for heresy. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/13/16 8:42 am
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| Doctrine |
brotherjames |
matters. Which is why the AG has a Statement of 16 Fundamental Truths and I assume there is a similar such statement for the COG (I forget what it is called). It does matter what you believe on these issues especially the ones that define us as a movement/fellowship/denomination. This is one of the reasons I am conducting a denominational survey. We say we stand for one thing in our constitution but there is far too much difference in what we actually are practicing in our churches.
In the AG we sign a renewal of credentials each year. On that form we must affirm that we 1) Agree with all 16 statements and 2) Preach/practice these truths in our churches.
If you sign a form that you believe and preach on these things but then actually believe and practice something different, what are you? Inconsistent or just a liar? SO yes, Eddie you should be brought before a board to explain yourself. However, that is extremely rare in these days, hence the confusion in our churches and pulpits as to who the AG or COG really is. Our name outside says one thing but inside we are someone else. How is that right? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/13/16 11:09 am
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| Re: Doctrine |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | | In the AG we sign a renewal of credentials each year. On that form we must affirm that we 1) Agree with all 16 statements and 2) Preach/practice these truths in our churches. |
The COG should implement a similar practice, and those who would oppose it should be ashamed. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/13/16 2:53 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I certainly could have forgotten something (haha), but in my time as an AoG pastor, I don't recall anything in the constitution and bylaws or Fundamental Truths which stated anything specific regarding the operation of spiritual gifts in meetings. The same is true, if I recall correctly, concerning the CoG. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
1/14/16 8:52 am
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| You are correct |
brotherjames |
There is nothing that mandates the allowing or disallowing of the spiritual gifts in worship services in the AG. What is mandated is that you believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and in the initial physical evidence of that baptism which is speaking in other tongues and that you not only believe in that but that you preach it and teach it. If you are actually doing those things in public services one could naturally assume there would be manifestations of the same.
As to Gordon Fee, and others, we are not holding everyone to the standard our Constitution mandates and that is what is causing confusion and laxity on these issues in our pastoral ranks. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/14/16 12:17 pm
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Preacher777 |
I want to start by thanking Brother James, Link, Tom Sterbens and others for some great information in this thread. Our church is under 250 and we have had tongues and interpretation of tongues on rare occasions. We have prophetic utterances given much more than tongues/interpretation. We have several people who operate in these vocal Gifts. My wife and I are given a Word of Knowledge more than we are used in prophecies, tongues/interpretation.
The Gifts usually operate during the worship time. It can be before we start singing or between songs. We did a lot of teaching about waiting on God, learning to be quiet before Him and being comfortable with pauses during worship. Sometimes a Word comes forth spontaneously. Other times God shows me somebody has a Word. I will ask the keyboard player to play something soft while and encourage others to know God speaks through the humble, not just the pastor, his wife or a ministry leader.
Fortunately we haven't had problems with the Gifts. I teach or share that the Gifts are to build up the body and not draw attention to ourselves. In eight years at the church I have only had a couple of instances where I had to speak to people about being out of line and drawing attention the themselves.
When I mention my wife or I being used in a Word of Knowledge in most instances we do not preface things with, "I have a Word of Knowledge." Instead I like to just share what God is showing me and let the response take place. Sometimes if a person is resistant to respond I will share a little bit on what a Word of Knowledge is and then wait on God. Again, we believe and teach that although some spiritual Gifts are present we would like to see them in operation more often and believe puffing ourselves up as an "anointed Gift minister" is a way to grieve the Holy Spirit. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 434
1/17/16 7:46 pm
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