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 It that is what you want to believe |
theedmister |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | The only thing as it relates to the "curse" of Malachi is simply that when we aren't trusting God with our resources, we are trusting a world's system that is cursed...... that is what I don't hear being taught. |
So if we don't tithe we aren't trusting God, but trusting the world system?
Malachi doesn't say that failing to tithe is not trusting God. It says not tithing is robbing God. Why? Because the Law states that the first 10% is the Lord's. The curse is not some indirect effect of relying on a broken system. It is the Deut. 28 curse on disobedience to the Law.
You can try to massage that passage into some hybrid Law that passes into the new covenant and some indirect curse that Christ didn't redeem us from if you want. But that is NOT what Malachi is saying.
We are blessed, not cursed...all by faith.
We do not buy God's blessing or buy our redemption out of a "cursed system".
Acts 7:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! |
Again, tithing came along BEFORE the law! Just because some of you guys keep referring to it as being part of the law will never make it so.
If you follow your reasoning, then I guess we need to remove all instruments from our churches since we there is no example of instruments in worship being taught in the NT.... the reason it wasn't taught or talked about is because it was a given. The example was given to us in the OT. Same with tithing, the example was given to us. If you can't see that tithing is simply a trust issue, then there is not much more to say.
Tithing or giving a tenth is just a matter of trust. It is not a heaven or hell issue, but it is a trust issue. |
Things that were a "given" were indeed discussed by the apostles. Furthermore, please cite where tithing was instituted by God before the Law,
Let's see, you have Abraham ONE TIME giving a tenth of spoils of war to Melchizedek. He was never commanded by God to do so and there is no record he ever did it again.
Abraham gave to King Melchizedek ten percent of the war spoils. Note that he gave the rest to the King of Sodom. Abraham kept nothing for himself.
Abraham did NOT give ten percent of his income, or ten percent of all he owned. He gave ten percent of the war spoils that he, himself, said didn't belong to him. He gave nothing of his own.
The scripture does not tell us that Abraham was required to tithe, or give a tenth, of the war spoils. Whether a gift or not, Abraham said the goods didn't belong to him, and he kept nothing for himself.
There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this event has anything to do with the New Testament Church. It was a one-time event. There is no evidence in the scriptures to show that Abraham ever tithed before or after this event. Therefore, we believe it is wrong to use this example to show that tithing had been established before the law and therefore, was brought into the New Testament. Since Abraham gave nothing of his own, it is wrong to pull the concept of the tithe out of context and now apply it to one's own income or property.
Please make the hermeneutical fit for with that example.
Then you have a supplanter who had stolen a birth right trying to make a deal with God stating he's give a tenth of his wealth (not income) to God, as if God needed anything. How was he going to deliver it to God?
And from those two examples you want to create some "eternal principle"? |
Apparently what Abraham did had such an impact that it carried over. Funny that Jesus is talked about being a high priest after the "order" of Melchizedek.
What did Melchizedek do? He received the tithe or the tenth from Abraham and he blessed him. Why not Jesus being the high priest after another order?
There is a principle of tithing. Plenty of other people and ministers see it as well. Not to abuse people but because of a principle of being blessed.
Tithing or a tenth shouldn't be the only thing we give, but it is a pretty good starting point. It all belongs to God. |
Who "carried it over"? The apostles? There's no record that they did. And again, if we are to use this as some example for our giving, we'd only pay tithes once like Abraham did and not on things that belong to us. |
If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
6/1/14 1:09 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
Resident Skeptic |
| theedmister wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | The only thing as it relates to the "curse" of Malachi is simply that when we aren't trusting God with our resources, we are trusting a world's system that is cursed...... that is what I don't hear being taught. |
So if we don't tithe we aren't trusting God, but trusting the world system?
Malachi doesn't say that failing to tithe is not trusting God. It says not tithing is robbing God. Why? Because the Law states that the first 10% is the Lord's. The curse is not some indirect effect of relying on a broken system. It is the Deut. 28 curse on disobedience to the Law.
You can try to massage that passage into some hybrid Law that passes into the new covenant and some indirect curse that Christ didn't redeem us from if you want. But that is NOT what Malachi is saying.
We are blessed, not cursed...all by faith.
We do not buy God's blessing or buy our redemption out of a "cursed system".
Acts 7:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! |
Again, tithing came along BEFORE the law! Just because some of you guys keep referring to it as being part of the law will never make it so.
If you follow your reasoning, then I guess we need to remove all instruments from our churches since we there is no example of instruments in worship being taught in the NT.... the reason it wasn't taught or talked about is because it was a given. The example was given to us in the OT. Same with tithing, the example was given to us. If you can't see that tithing is simply a trust issue, then there is not much more to say.
Tithing or giving a tenth is just a matter of trust. It is not a heaven or hell issue, but it is a trust issue. |
Things that were a "given" were indeed discussed by the apostles. Furthermore, please cite where tithing was instituted by God before the Law,
Let's see, you have Abraham ONE TIME giving a tenth of spoils of war to Melchizedek. He was never commanded by God to do so and there is no record he ever did it again.
Abraham gave to King Melchizedek ten percent of the war spoils. Note that he gave the rest to the King of Sodom. Abraham kept nothing for himself.
Abraham did NOT give ten percent of his income, or ten percent of all he owned. He gave ten percent of the war spoils that he, himself, said didn't belong to him. He gave nothing of his own.
The scripture does not tell us that Abraham was required to tithe, or give a tenth, of the war spoils. Whether a gift or not, Abraham said the goods didn't belong to him, and he kept nothing for himself.
There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this event has anything to do with the New Testament Church. It was a one-time event. There is no evidence in the scriptures to show that Abraham ever tithed before or after this event. Therefore, we believe it is wrong to use this example to show that tithing had been established before the law and therefore, was brought into the New Testament. Since Abraham gave nothing of his own, it is wrong to pull the concept of the tithe out of context and now apply it to one's own income or property.
Please make the hermeneutical fit for with that example.
Then you have a supplanter who had stolen a birth right trying to make a deal with God stating he's give a tenth of his wealth (not income) to God, as if God needed anything. How was he going to deliver it to God?
And from those two examples you want to create some "eternal principle"? |
Apparently what Abraham did had such an impact that it carried over. Funny that Jesus is talked about being a high priest after the "order" of Melchizedek.
What did Melchizedek do? He received the tithe or the tenth from Abraham and he blessed him. Why not Jesus being the high priest after another order?
There is a principle of tithing. Plenty of other people and ministers see it as well. Not to abuse people but because of a principle of being blessed.
Tithing or a tenth shouldn't be the only thing we give, but it is a pretty good starting point. It all belongs to God. |
Who "carried it over"? The apostles? There's no record that they did. And again, if we are to use this as some example for our giving, we'd only pay tithes once like Abraham did and not on things that belong to us. |
If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
They did not tithe and give beyond the tithe because because the covenant from which the priesthood which necessitated tithing sprang was abolished. If it was not given by a Jew in Israel from produce or livestock on Israeli soil, then God would have rejected it. Gentiles would never have been commanded to tithe anything much less money. So there is no way you "see it scripture".
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/1/14 3:32 pm
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| Re: Before the Law ... |
Resident Skeptic |
| theedmister wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
He did it once.God never told him to. No record he did it again. |
It would be easier to believe Abraham did it regular than to believe he did it once. Especially by the fact that he did it and gave a percentage. I don't think this just came out of the blue. Something he made up. It was part of his life style and recorded here as a practice.
If a person chooses not to tithe that is their choice. I wouldn't miss the opportunity. I have been tithing (and more) for over 24 years now. The Lord has been so good to me and money is not an issue.
Money is not an issue because I have so much but because He has so much. I give it to Him and He always takes care of my needs. The Lord is so great.
Hebrews 7 answers the question of tithing. I also recommend the book "The Blessed Life" by Robert Morris. He covering tithing and giving well.
I love the way he deals with the spirit of mammon.
No way would I ever quit talking and preaching about tithing. I love my people too much. I see it in scripture and in my personal life. |
All theory and no scripture. You would really curse your brother over that? We can't build doctrine like that.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/1/14 3:33 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
bradfreeman |
| theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
You see it in the NT church? Where?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
6/1/14 3:37 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
Resident Skeptic |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
You see it in the NT church? Where? |
Exactly. The only tithing around to carry over was found in the Law and we see no evidence of Gentile Christians offering tithes at the temple.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/1/14 4:08 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
Link |
| theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
The apostles may have done like the rest of the church and sold their lands to give to others. But if they kept their lands, they probably tithed off of them to the priests in the temple. They probably offered animal sacrifices, too. It is likely Paul was on his way to do the same thing.
Jesus told some people to do an offering that would have required an animal sacrifice. That doesn't mean Gentiles out among the nations should offer animal sacrifices in the church. There were specific commands for animals sacrifices to be done in the temple, just as there were specific commands for who to pay the tithes to and what to tithe in the Old Testament.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
6/1/14 10:04 pm
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| Re: Before the Law ... |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
He did it once.God never told him to. No record he did it again. |
It would be easier to believe Abraham did it regular than to believe he did it once. Especially by the fact that he did it and gave a percentage. I don't think this just came out of the blue. Something he made up. It was part of his life style and recorded here as a practice.
If a person chooses not to tithe that is their choice. I wouldn't miss the opportunity. I have been tithing (and more) for over 24 years now. The Lord has been so good to me and money is not an issue.
Money is not an issue because I have so much but because He has so much. I give it to Him and He always takes care of my needs. The Lord is so great.
Hebrews 7 answers the question of tithing. I also recommend the book "The Blessed Life" by Robert Morris. He covering tithing and giving well.
I love the way he deals with the spirit of mammon.
No way would I ever quit talking and preaching about tithing. I love my people too much. I see it in scripture and in my personal life. |
All theory and no scripture. You would really curse your brother over that? We can't build doctrine like that. |
Have you ever read the Blessed Life by Robert Morris.... if you say all theory and no scripture to that book, then I know you haven't read it.
Robert Morris is not only a great communicator, but he is also a true theologian. You normally don't get the benefit of both... Most theologians are relatively boring to listen to..... but not Robert Morris |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
6/1/14 10:13 pm
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| Re: Before the Law ... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
He did it once.God never told him to. No record he did it again. |
It would be easier to believe Abraham did it regular than to believe he did it once. Especially by the fact that he did it and gave a percentage. I don't think this just came out of the blue. Something he made up. It was part of his life style and recorded here as a practice.
If a person chooses not to tithe that is their choice. I wouldn't miss the opportunity. I have been tithing (and more) for over 24 years now. The Lord has been so good to me and money is not an issue.
Money is not an issue because I have so much but because He has so much. I give it to Him and He always takes care of my needs. The Lord is so great.
Hebrews 7 answers the question of tithing. I also recommend the book "The Blessed Life" by Robert Morris. He covering tithing and giving well.
I love the way he deals with the spirit of mammon.
No way would I ever quit talking and preaching about tithing. I love my people too much. I see it in scripture and in my personal life. |
All theory and no scripture. You would really curse your brother over that? We can't build doctrine like that. |
Have you ever read the Blessed Life by Robert Morris.... if you say all theory and no scripture to that book, then I know you haven't read it.
Robert Morris is not only a great communicator, but he is also a true theologian. You normally don't get the benefit of both... Most theologians are relatively boring to listen to..... but not Robert Morris |
Here is another good one...
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse-David Johnson
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/1/14 10:26 pm
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| Re: Before the Law ... |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
He did it once.God never told him to. No record he did it again. |
It would be easier to believe Abraham did it regular than to believe he did it once. Especially by the fact that he did it and gave a percentage. I don't think this just came out of the blue. Something he made up. It was part of his life style and recorded here as a practice.
If a person chooses not to tithe that is their choice. I wouldn't miss the opportunity. I have been tithing (and more) for over 24 years now. The Lord has been so good to me and money is not an issue.
Money is not an issue because I have so much but because He has so much. I give it to Him and He always takes care of my needs. The Lord is so great.
Hebrews 7 answers the question of tithing. I also recommend the book "The Blessed Life" by Robert Morris. He covering tithing and giving well.
I love the way he deals with the spirit of mammon.
No way would I ever quit talking and preaching about tithing. I love my people too much. I see it in scripture and in my personal life. |
All theory and no scripture. You would really curse your brother over that? We can't build doctrine like that. |
Have you ever read the Blessed Life by Robert Morris.... if you say all theory and no scripture to that book, then I know you haven't read it.
Robert Morris is not only a great communicator, but he is also a true theologian. You normally don't get the benefit of both... Most theologians are relatively boring to listen to..... but not Robert Morris |
Here is another good one...
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse-David Johnson |
I will take that as a no! Thanks |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
6/2/14 7:10 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Hard shell baptist have some best teaching on giving based off free will giving and not out of obligation. Frank Viola in his book Pagan Christianity totally destroys the notion of tithing being a Christian practice. Tithing was a tax system for Jewish Nation. If preachers are going accept tithes, they should disavow of owning personal lands, homes, etc.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/2/14 6:24 pm
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Hard shell baptist have some best teaching on giving based off free will giving and not out of obligation. Frank Viola in his book Pagan Christianity totally destroys the notion of tithing being a Christian practice. Tithing was a tax system for Jewish Nation. If preachers are going accept tithes, they should disavow of owning personal lands, homes, etc. |
Most of the baptist guys that I know teach the principle of the tithe...... not as a requirement but as a starting point of giving and trusting God with their resources.... seems to be working pretty well. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
6/2/14 8:50 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
theedmister |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
You see it in the NT church? Where? |
I mentioned it in my earlier post. Not much into repeating over and over again. Also I mentioned a great resource. Robert Morris does a great job of showing the proof of scripture.
If you would like to state your opinion on these resources that would be great. Seen God work too many times to have any doubts on my part. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
6/5/14 2:23 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
bradfreeman |
| theedmister wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
You see it in the NT church? Where? |
I mentioned it in my earlier post. Not much into repeating over and over again. Also I mentioned a great resource. Robert Morris does a great job of showing the proof of scripture.
If you would like to state your opinion on these resources that would be great. Seen God work too many times to have any doubts on my part. |
I reviewed your posts looking for the passage that shows the NT church "tithed and gave beyond tithe". I couldn't find it. Please provide the reference if it is other than Heb 7, so I can consider it. Thanks.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
6/5/14 7:47 pm
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| Re: It that is what you want to believe |
Resident Skeptic |
| theedmister wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | If you want to believe that tithing was not carried over by the apostles that is your choice. I see it in scripture and in the New Testament church. I know they tithed and gave beyond the tithe. There is no doubt and I believe that scripture shows that. |
You see it in the NT church? Where? |
I mentioned it in my earlier post. Not much into repeating over and over again. Also I mentioned a great resource. Robert Morris does a great job of showing the proof of scripture.
If you would like to state your opinion on these resources that would be great. Seen God work too many times to have any doubts on my part. |
If you think this is sound teaching,...well..............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP0uFa4tj58
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
6/6/14 7:37 am
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