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 Is the Kenosis doctrine valid? (V) |
Resident Skeptic |
This Trinitarian really raises some good points. I'd like to hear your thoughts...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6p-t5Xumfs
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/16/16 5:53 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
I listened to the clip, RS. As one who leans toward Oneness theology, what is it about this guy's view that interests you? He clearly distinguishes between the Father and the Son.
In the main, one cannot totally deny the concept of kenosis without rejecting the biblical text, as the word itself is used in the Philippians text. What is of essence is "what" was emptied and "what" was added. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/16/16 7:03 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | I listened to the clip, RS. As one who leans toward Oneness theology, what is it about this guy's view that interests you? He clearly distinguishes between the Father and the Son.
In the main, one cannot totally deny the concept of kenosis without rejecting the biblical text, as the word itself is used in the Philippians text. What is of essence is "what" was emptied and "what" was added. |
I'm stunned. I cannot believe what has happened. OTCP has answered me in a non-parody manner. I'm trembling here.
But, back to the discussion...
Firstly, the Oneness position does NOT deny the Father and Son distinction. We simply do not believe that it is Biblical to say that God has to exist as multiple, centers of self consciousness in order to have such a distinction.
As for this video. Admittedly, this is only one Trinitarian's view of the Kenosis teaching. But his view underscores some points I have repeatedly made on this board over the years, that, certain views of the trinity actually alter the very being of God himself.
In another thread I asked if God the Son lost consciousness during the incarnation and if he lost self-identity as well. If he did, then that alters the being of God and makes him less than Almighty. As one Trinitarian put it....
| Quote: | The Father is not God as such; for God is not only Father, but also Son and Holy Spirit. The term Father designates that personal distinction in the divine nature in virtue of which God is related to the Son and, through the Son and the Spirit, to the church.
The Son is not God as such; for God is not only Son, but also Father and Holy Spirit. The Son designates that distinction in virtue of which God is related to the Father, and is sent by the Father to redeem the world, and with the Father sends the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not God as such; for God is not only Holy Spirit, but also Father and Son. The Holy Spirit designates that distinction in virtue of which God is related to the Father and the Son, and is sent by them to accomplish the work of renewing the ungodly and sanctifying the church. (Emery Bancroft "Christian Theology", pages 87-8 |
If Bankcroft's view of the Trinity is correct, then the author of the video is also correct in his assertion that the Kenosis theory destroys the immutability of God.
Below is a transcript of the portion of the video I am referring to....
| Quote: | The idea that Jesus left Heaven and surrendered his Omni-divine attributes is like saying that Jesus was no longer God while on earth. Did us lose his deity in the incarnation and exchange it to become human? Can the being of God dramatically change like this? If he lost his divine attributes the universe would collapse.
If the one Lord God of Israel, Creator of all things, infinite in his essence, from everlasting ,possessing all Omni-divine attributes-who has always been the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-suddenly loses his divine attributes, He is no longer changless, self-sufficient or eternal.
The teaching that the Son literally left Heaven and emptied his divine nature would mean there had been a radical change to the being of God. And therefore we would have denied an essential divine perfection of God, his immutability.
If we deny that, we've denied the Almighty God of the Bible.
Kenosis would also lead to tritheism because it would imply the Son and his divine nature are radically separated from the Father and the Holy Spirit.
It wasn't a different divine nature, being or God from the Father and Holy Spirit that became incarnate. It was the same Old Testament God manifest in flesh. You cannot separate the deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And they mutually indwell each other (John 10:38, 14:11, 20, 23, Rom. 8:9, Gal. 4:6, Acts 16:6-7), illustrating that they are indeed one in Deity and spiritual substance of being, not three spirits or Divine natures. Plus if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit mutually indwell each other, even in the days of Christ's flesh, the Kenosis theory would be impossible. And we know that Jesus while on earth said that he was in the Father and the Father in him.
Those who hold to the Kenosis theory must admit that the Son remained of the same substance and nature of the Father and Holy Spirit while in his humbled State. He did not cease being God on earth. He was one person with two full and complete natures. He wasn't partially God on earth and then restored to fully God at the exaltation. He continued to be infinite in glory and power and continued to have all the divine attributes of God in his Deity while he was on earth. He didn't lose his glory.
Conclusion: The Kenosis theory may be appealing to our human reasoning but it leads to denying the full Almighty deity of the Son and the fundamental doctrine of immutability. God's essential being did not change during the incarnation. And once you have denied the full deity of Christ, the gospel and the cross are impacted. |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/17/16 12:45 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | I'm stunned. I cannot believe what has happened. OTCP has answered me in a non-parody manner. I'm trembling here. |
Be thou at ease, my son, no harm shall befall thee.  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/17/16 1:26 pm
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| Two Views: |
maqqebet |
The Greek/Western mindset wrestle because it wants to frame the issue in an "either-or" understanding. In other words, it can't be both, therefore it is one or the other.
Paul, coming from a Semitic-eastern perspective can hold the tension of paradox with a "both-and" framework.
As Tim Hegg notes in The Letter Writer: Paul's Background and Torah Perspective,
| Quote: | | ...Paul never writes as though needing to defend something by way of debate. It was only in the later creedal activity of the 3rd and 4th Century Christian Church that the linear logic of the Greek and Latin fathers found some of these categories inconsistent. In attempting to unravel the 'mystery of godliness,' they force an 'either-or' into categories which, in Hebraic thought, were 'both-and'...He [Paul] can do this because within the thinking process of the Semitic mind there is no need for a comprehensive linear logic across all aspect of life's experiences and thoughts. Within the sphere of the Divine, God is invisible. But when He desires to appear to His creation, He can do so without compromising His essential nature." - p 160-161 |
| Quote: | | ...the Semitic mind of the ancient world expected tension of competing concepts to be the norm within the thinking process. Often our need to reconcile tensions leads us down a path the original authors never intended." - p. 162 |
The degree of difficulty is getting past the thought that "form" suggests a concrete existence of a spiritual existence. God is spirit (John 4:24) and cannot be captured by form. Form implies nature and essence (John 1:14-18) rather than what is expressed by image (which describes Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Colossians 1:15), a concrete, visible representation in physical form.
Being in the "form of God" means Jesus was "equal" with God, yet in order to take on the "bond-servant" he divested Himself of the privilege of His equality. He made a sacrifice prior to becoming a servant. He made a conscious decision not to invoke "executive privilege" as God's Son, but rather than allowing His servitude become a staging ground for self-expression and asset a will separate from the expressed will and intent of that He came to perform - the will of God the Father.
While the ultimate destiny of His obedience would result in His death on the Cross, His humility was expressed in this: Neither were His Works or Teachings self-expressions but expressions of that which He received from the father (John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 12:49-50; 14:10).
This attitude is beautifully expressed in the Garden at His arrest when He told them to put up their swords and declared, "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 16:51-54)
This same attitude Paul teaches we must posses, the willingness to abandon self - self-wll, self-indulgence, self-expression, self-sufficiency, in submission to our Father's will being fulfilled in us and through us flies in the face of the attitude of Entitlement so often found today in the expression of "living like the King's kid," but rather identify ourselves as Servants of God.
The impoverished spirt is empty of self-will, self-purpose, self-dependency, self-expression, self-anything. This is the Believer's identity, the witness he or she is a citizen of a Kingdom transcending the nature and understanding of a self-absorbed world seeking to save its own life in in the end will lose it.
Poverty of Spirit is a witness not of possessing the Kingdom of Heaven but as Believers we follow the example of our King and through the strength of humility we become witness to a Kingdom that already is, and is to come.
_________________
The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1771
7/17/16 3:52 pm
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| Re: Two Views: |
Resident Skeptic |
| maqqebet wrote: | The Greek/Western mindset wrestle because it wants to frame the issue in an "either-or" understanding. In other words, it can't be both, therefore it is one or the other.
Paul, coming from a Semitic-eastern perspective can hold the tension of paradox with a "both-and" framework.
As Tim Hegg notes in The Letter Writer: Paul's Background and Torah Perspective,
| Quote: | | ...Paul never writes as though needing to defend something by way of debate. It was only in the later creedal activity of the 3rd and 4th Century Christian Church that the linear logic of the Greek and Latin fathers found some of these categories inconsistent. In attempting to unravel the 'mystery of godliness,' they force an 'either-or' into categories which, in Hebraic thought, were 'both-and'...He [Paul] can do this because within the thinking process of the Semitic mind there is no need for a comprehensive linear logic across all aspect of life's experiences and thoughts. Within the sphere of the Divine, God is invisible. But when He desires to appear to His creation, He can do so without compromising His essential nature." - p 160-161 |
| Quote: | | ...the Semitic mind of the ancient world expected tension of competing concepts to be the norm within the thinking process. Often our need to reconcile tensions leads us down a path the original authors never intended." - p. 162 |
The degree of difficulty is getting past the thought that "form" suggests a concrete existence of a spiritual existence. God is spirit (John 4:24) and cannot be captured by form. Form implies nature and essence (John 1:14-18) rather than what is expressed by image (which describes Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Colossians 1:15), a concrete, visible representation in physical form.
Being in the "form of God" means Jesus was "equal" with God, yet in order to take on the "bond-servant" he divested Himself of the privilege of His equality. He made a sacrifice prior to becoming a servant. He made a conscious decision not to invoke "executive privilege" as God's Son, but rather than allowing His servitude become a staging ground for self-expression and asset a will separate from the expressed will and intent of that He came to perform - the will of God the Father.
While the ultimate destiny of His obedience would result in His death on the Cross, His humility was expressed in this: Neither were His Works or Teachings self-expressions but expressions of that which He received from the father (John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 12:49-50; 14:10).
This attitude is beautifully expressed in the Garden at His arrest when He told them to put up their swords and declared, "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 16:51-54)
This same attitude Paul teaches we must posses, the willingness to abandon self - self-wll, self-indulgence, self-expression, self-sufficiency, in submission to our Father's will being fulfilled in us and through us flies in the face of the attitude of Entitlement so often found today in the expression of "living like the King's kid," but rather identify ourselves as Servants of God.
The impoverished spirt is empty of self-will, self-purpose, self-dependency, self-expression, self-anything. This is the Believer's identity, the witness he or she is a citizen of a Kingdom transcending the nature and understanding of a self-absorbed world seeking to save its own life in in the end will lose it.
Poverty of Spirit is a witness not of possessing the Kingdom of Heaven but as Believers we follow the example of our King and through the strength of humility we become witness to a Kingdom that already is, and is to come. |
Good post.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/18/16 6:52 am
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