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 I wasn't suggesting I wrote it |
brotherjames |
| I forgot the attribution. PLEASE forgive me, it wasn't intentional. I had read it before and had passed it on to some leadership and I just cut and pasted it on here from a larger piece dealing with the same subject that we gave been discussing in internal memos within the AG. Sorry |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/28/17 6:14 pm
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Ventureforth |
| UncleJD wrote: | | The last point for today is the large church model, I think that the small to medium church is trying to emulate the large church too much and may be why so many leave them to go to the large church. This is a huge topic and needs pages to unpack. |
Amen! I'm hesitant in agreeing with the mentality that a church has to find out what growing churches are doing and copy them as much as possible. That's true to an extent. But as an overarching concern, a pastor has to find out what God wants for their church. God's program never goes out of style. If something happens to be what growing churches are doing, then that's great!
Believe me, and I think you folks know this as well as I, many people (perhaps not all) are really in their heart seeking something more than the world gives them. Ultimately, they want a church where they can genuinely experience God, learn from and about Him, and fellowship with Spirit filled believers who produce the fruit of the Spirit. But the Spirit is not going to help us do what we want to do or think works, except when that aligns with His will. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
2/28/17 7:40 pm
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| Not an accurate assessment here... |
Jamie Noel |
| Methocostal wrote: | Uncle, you beat me to it.
I do think a major issue is the move to the mega church. Unfortunately, I also see it at small churches. We left churches before and never received one inquiry as to why.
This was a hot button issue with me a few years ago, under a different name, and was a major reason I ultimately "banished" myself. I was amazed at the lack of concern by the pastors on this board when people quit attending. Most seemed to have the attitude that it doesn't do any good to try to keep people from leaving. Perhaps they are correct that one can't persuade people already upset from leaving. But "exit interviews" could go a long way in determining systemic problems that solving common issues may prevent others from leaving. I hate to say "most", but that was my recollection. Conversatively, I know it was significant number of pastors had a "members fault" mentality.
I think it is a serious spiritual problem for pastors with such an attitude. What part of the one lost sheep did they miss? I am FULLY aware of problem parishoners, but I'm sorry, it is the pastors responsibility to be a shepherd. Indeed, it is not the sole responsibility of the pastor, but it DOES start at the top. The pastor sets the tone. If lower level pastors are in charge of visiting, then those assigned responsibility should visit. If Church small groups are in charge of visiting and ministering to those under them, then it is THEIR responsibility. Ultimately, though, the pastor sets the tone and if they don't make it a priority, I assure you, the lower levels that are suppose to do it, will NOT do it.
If people are not asked why they left, how do you know if they are sick, discouraged, backslidden or whatever? I'd hate to be in the shoes of the pastor that just ignores those that left. If for no other reason, than business, pastors need to know WHAT do they can do to prevent others from doing the same. For goodness sake, the soul of people are at stake.
It matters not one iota if the member left for silly reasons, the pastors ultimate responsibility is to be the chief shepherd. If you don't like that, talk to God, not me. I didn't write the rules.
| UncleJD wrote: | I have a developing theory that I'm working out with my brother, perhaps we'll write a book.
I have a lot of thoughts, stats, quotes, etc.. but if I had to sum it up in one statement it might be this..
I strongly feel the anemic seeker-friendly "mega church" has driven the small, healthy church out of business on one hand, and eventually bored most of those that hopped over, right out the door. |
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Over the last 20 years I have made dozens of calls to those who have left or stopped coming to church. The truth is, I have never had one family answer or return my call or email to tell me why they left or stopped coming. So, its not always an arrogant pastor refusing to try and get people back.
_________________
Stay Positive! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1138
2/28/17 10:29 pm
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| Thom Rainer |
Jamie Noel |
In his book, Autopsy of a Deceased Church, he points out why churches are declining and closing. By the way, this is an amazing read. And a short read. Anyway, all 14 churches within his study that had closed had a single common factor for their decline and closure......the church became self focused.
I have lived this the past 12 years. When we started, our church was very community focused. In fact, we grew from 12-380 in our first year. We maintained our drive and momentum into year 2. Then, something changed. As the staff continued to be outward focused, a sense of selfishness infiltrated our church. All of a sudden, after reaching a certain growth point, the church no longer wanted to continue to grow. They became extremely self focused and consumed.
I just hope their hearts will change in the coming years or this church will cease to even exist.
_________________
Stay Positive! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1138
2/28/17 10:54 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Why doesn't everyone use 24 to Double to solve this problem?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
3/1/17 8:18 am
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bonnie knox |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Why doesn't everyone use 24 to Double to solve this problem? |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
3/1/17 10:12 am
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skinnybishop |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Why doesn't everyone use 24 to Double to solve this problem? |
SON!
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Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
3/1/17 10:43 am
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| A perspective not from the pulpit (L) |
bonnie knox |
If you get a group of committed pastors sitting around trying to figure out why the church is in decline, you will probably come up with what is wrong with people in the pew which cause them to leave the church, and you will get folks like Thom Rainer trying to tell you what you can do to keep those people from doing that. In some cases discussed here, people are leaving one church and going to another (maybe to one where the pastor is more transparent about his salary, ha!). If people leave one church and go to another, that isn't reflected in a survey which measures overall church decline in out country.
That brings me to a couple of points.
One, there is a growing group of people who consider themselves believers who are "done" with the institutionalized church. Unlike brotherjames, when they say they are "done," that means they leave and are not there anymore. If you want to look at the big picture, I think you must reckon with the "dones."
Just do a search on "dones + church."
Second, look for some different perspectives on the problem. Like this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-mcswain/why-nobody-wants-to-go-to_b_4086016.html
Second, |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
3/1/17 10:56 am
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| Re: A perspective not from the pulpit (L) |
Pastor Wright |
This was quite an interesting read.
This is a really good suggestion:
| Quote: | | However, when I suggest to pastors and priests, as I frequently do, that they should use social media and, even in worship, they should, for example, right smack in the middle of a sermon, ask the youth and young adults to text their questions about the sermon’s topic... that you’ll retrieve them on your smartphone... and, before dismissing, answer the three best questions about today’s sermon, most of the ministers look at me as if I’ve lost my mind. |
_________________
"[Jesus] will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." - Nicene Creed |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 68
3/1/17 2:21 pm
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| Re: (L) |
Old Time Country Preacher |
Sooooonnnnnnnnnnn, at Miss Bonnie is a smooth operator ain't she? She caught this act of plagiarism straight out an exposed it to the light.
Ethics on Display............ |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
3/1/17 2:50 pm
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diakoneo |
Perhaps we are asking the wrong question. Instead of, "why have people stopped coming to church?" maybe we should ask, "why are people coming to church now?"
That may sound strange, but it seems to me that many of the people coming to church today are coming for the wrong reason. Check out "why" many if not most people are attracted to mega churches. They involve "self" What is in the church for me? What does it offer me? Etc. etc. I believe this has a negative effect on those who would be attracted to our assemblies. The world can always outdo the church when it comes to entertainment. What they can't do is give them the love of God the Father in Jesus Christ. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
3/2/17 3:15 pm
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| Re: (L) |
Ventureforth |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: |
Sooooonnnnnnnnnnn, at Miss Bonnie is a smooth operator ain't she? She caught this act of plagiarism straight out an exposed it to the light.
Ethics on Display............ |
Should I take it you don't accept his apology? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
3/2/17 7:46 pm
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| Re: Not an accurate assessment here... |
Methocostal |
Wow. I must say I am surprised. Thank you for trying!
Obviously, you never called me or I would have told you 
Seriously, that does add an unexpected dimension to my post.
| Jamie Noel wrote: | | Methocostal wrote: | Uncle, you beat me to it.
I do think a major issue is the move to the mega church. Unfortunately, I also see it at small churches. We left churches before and never received one inquiry as to why.
This was a hot button issue with me a few years ago, under a different name, and was a major reason I ultimately "banished" myself. I was amazed at the lack of concern by the pastors on this board when people quit attending. Most seemed to have the attitude that it doesn't do any good to try to keep people from leaving. Perhaps they are correct that one can't persuade people already upset from leaving. But "exit interviews" could go a long way in determining systemic problems that solving common issues may prevent others from leaving. I hate to say "most", but that was my recollection. Conversatively, I know it was significant number of pastors had a "members fault" mentality.
I think it is a serious spiritual problem for pastors with such an attitude. What part of the one lost sheep did they miss? I am FULLY aware of problem parishoners, but I'm sorry, it is the pastors responsibility to be a shepherd. Indeed, it is not the sole responsibility of the pastor, but it DOES start at the top. The pastor sets the tone. If lower level pastors are in charge of visiting, then those assigned responsibility should visit. If Church small groups are in charge of visiting and ministering to those under them, then it is THEIR responsibility. Ultimately, though, the pastor sets the tone and if they don't make it a priority, I assure you, the lower levels that are suppose to do it, will NOT do it.
If people are not asked why they left, how do you know if they are sick, discouraged, backslidden or whatever? I'd hate to be in the shoes of the pastor that just ignores those that left. If for no other reason, than business, pastors need to know WHAT do they can do to prevent others from doing the same. For goodness sake, the soul of people are at stake.
It matters not one iota if the member left for silly reasons, the pastors ultimate responsibility is to be the chief shepherd. If you don't like that, talk to God, not me. I didn't write the rules.
| UncleJD wrote: | I have a developing theory that I'm working out with my brother, perhaps we'll write a book.
I have a lot of thoughts, stats, quotes, etc.. but if I had to sum it up in one statement it might be this..
I strongly feel the anemic seeker-friendly "mega church" has driven the small, healthy church out of business on one hand, and eventually bored most of those that hopped over, right out the door. |
|
Over the last 20 years I have made dozens of calls to those who have left or stopped coming to church. The truth is, I have never had one family answer or return my call or email to tell me why they left or stopped coming. So, its not always an arrogant pastor refusing to try and get people back. |
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Friendly Face
Posts: 496
3/8/17 10:49 am
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Methocostal |
Good point!
| diakoneo wrote: | Perhaps we are asking the wrong question. Instead of, "why have people stopped coming to church?" maybe we should ask, "why are people coming to church now?"
That may sound strange, but it seems to me that many of the people coming to church today are coming for the wrong reason. Check out "why" many if not most people are attracted to mega churches. They involve "self" What is in the church for me? What does it offer me? Etc. etc. I believe this has a negative effect on those who would be attracted to our assemblies. The world can always outdo the church when it comes to entertainment. What they can't do is give them the love of God the Father in Jesus Christ. |
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Friendly Face
Posts: 496
3/8/17 10:49 am
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| Jamie |
wayne |
| Jamie Noel wrote: | In his book, Autopsy of a Deceased Church, he points out why churches are declining and closing. By the way, this is an amazing read. And a short read. Anyway, all 14 churches within his study that had closed had a single common factor for their decline and closure......the church became self focused.
I have lived this the past 12 years. When we started, our church was very community focused. In fact, we grew from 12-380 in our first year. We maintained our drive and momentum into year 2. Then, something changed. As the staff continued to be outward focused, a sense of selfishness infiltrated our church. All of a sudden, after reaching a certain growth point, the church no longer wanted to continue to grow. They became extremely self focused and consumed.
I just hope their hearts will change in the coming years or this church will cease to even exist. |
Jamie,
I am in agreement with your statements. Serious question, I'm wondering if we are only supposed to have a few mega churches and everyone else 300 or less(feel free to pick that apart). Mega churches for the folks who wonder and want all the extra "stuff" and the smaller church to have a true impact in neighborhoods. The reason I say this is because, we have experienced the same. Every time our church starts to grow, people leave and to be honest we usually only replace them and maybe add a couple more. Currently, our church is on the uptick in growth.
Every person that I've tried to keep, usually says: God is leading me to, I'm not being fed, I feel impressed to, the church is getting too big, I don't have the same relationship with the pastor as when we were smaller, there's nothing for me to do, every time I try to move up I am met with struggle........ And then a little while later, you find these people not really attending anywhere or just barely attending at all.
Look, I know I am not a perfect pastor and I am not one to chase people for too long. I have come to the conclusion that all churches should have a revolving door because people are coming and going all the time. Our new strategy is continue reaching into the truly lost population and leave the wondering/know it all sheep alone. This may or may not be the right approach but it keeps me sane and is helping our church to grow. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
3/9/17 8:29 am
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| Re: Thom Rainer |
Dentanner |
| Jamie Noel wrote: | In his book, Autopsy of a Deceased Church, he points out why churches are declining and closing. By the way, this is an amazing read. And a short read. Anyway, all 14 churches within his study that had closed had a single common factor for their decline and closure......the church became self focused.
I have lived this the past 12 years. When we started, our church was very community focused. In fact, we grew from 12-380 in our first year. We maintained our drive and momentum into year 2. Then, something changed. As the staff continued to be outward focused, a sense of selfishness infiltrated our church. All of a sudden, after reaching a certain growth point, the church no longer wanted to continue to grow. They became extremely self focused and consumed.
I just hope their hearts will change in the coming years or this church will cease to even exist. |
Jamie, I have not read this book but I can agree from experience with the thesis. Jesus gave a command to "go into all the world".... Jesus' command for the church was to be OUTWARD FOCUSED. Inward focused groups lose their vision, their purpose, excitement, creativity, and motivation. They develop a "maintenance mentality". So many churches I visit and pastors I talk to have no vision or goal for OUTWARD ministry, for enlisting others to do the outward ministry, or to raise funds for the outward ministry.
I have tried several times to start conversations on this site about missions, to talk about how to do missions, to discuss fund raising for missions, but every effort seems to fall by the way side. It was entirely different when the pastors and church members were discussing the TOT on this site. The consensus was that if they could get a reduction in the TOT then they could do more for missions and evangelism. Now no one wants to talk about missions. It is sad, and a reflection why so many of our churches are in decline and in a 'maintenance mode'.
I could almost guarantee that all churches that are in decline and losing members have no missions ministry, are not giving money to missions, and have done nothing in the previous years to generate excitement, expand the vision, cast a vision, or raise funds for missions!
This is just my humble observation and opinion from 40 years of ministry.
Dennis
_________________
Dennis Tanner
Administrative Bishop Scotland
Church of God Career Missionary |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 97
3/9/17 5:54 pm
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| Re: Thom Rainer |
Jamie Noel |
| Dentanner wrote: | | Jamie Noel wrote: | In his book, Autopsy of a Deceased Church, he points out why churches are declining and closing. By the way, this is an amazing read. And a short read. Anyway, all 14 churches within his study that had closed had a single common factor for their decline and closure......the church became self focused.
I have lived this the past 12 years. When we started, our church was very community focused. In fact, we grew from 12-380 in our first year. We maintained our drive and momentum into year 2. Then, something changed. As the staff continued to be outward focused, a sense of selfishness infiltrated our church. All of a sudden, after reaching a certain growth point, the church no longer wanted to continue to grow. They became extremely self focused and consumed.
I just hope their hearts will change in the coming years or this church will cease to even exist. |
Jamie, I have not read this book but I can agree from experience with the thesis. Jesus gave a command to "go into all the world".... Jesus' command for the church was to be OUTWARD FOCUSED. Inward focused groups lose their vision, their purpose, excitement, creativity, and motivation. They develop a "maintenance mentality". So many churches I visit and pastors I talk to have no vision or goal for OUTWARD ministry, for enlisting others to do the outward ministry, or to raise funds for the outward ministry.
I have tried several times to start conversations on this site about missions, to talk about how to do missions, to discuss fund raising for missions, but every effort seems to fall by the way side. It was entirely different when the pastors and church members were discussing the TOT on this site. The consensus was that if they could get a reduction in the TOT then they could do more for missions and evangelism. Now no one wants to talk about missions. It is sad, and a reflection why so many of our churches are in decline and in a 'maintenance mode'.
I could almost guarantee that all churches that are in decline and losing members have no missions ministry, are not giving money to missions, and have done nothing in the previous years to generate excitement, expand the vision, cast a vision, or raise funds for missions!
This is just my humble observation and opinion from 40 years of ministry.
Dennis |
Spot on, Bishop!
_________________
Stay Positive! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1138
3/10/17 3:07 pm
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| Re: Jamie |
Jamie Noel |
| wayne wrote: | | Jamie Noel wrote: | In his book, Autopsy of a Deceased Church, he points out why churches are declining and closing. By the way, this is an amazing read. And a short read. Anyway, all 14 churches within his study that had closed had a single common factor for their decline and closure......the church became self focused.
I have lived this the past 12 years. When we started, our church was very community focused. In fact, we grew from 12-380 in our first year. We maintained our drive and momentum into year 2. Then, something changed. As the staff continued to be outward focused, a sense of selfishness infiltrated our church. All of a sudden, after reaching a certain growth point, the church no longer wanted to continue to grow. They became extremely self focused and consumed.
I just hope their hearts will change in the coming years or this church will cease to even exist. |
Jamie,
I am in agreement with your statements. Serious question, I'm wondering if we are only supposed to have a few mega churches and everyone else 300 or less(feel free to pick that apart). Mega churches for the folks who wonder and want all the extra "stuff" and the smaller church to have a true impact in neighborhoods. The reason I say this is because, we have experienced the same. Every time our church starts to grow, people leave and to be honest we usually only replace them and maybe add a couple more. Currently, our church is on the uptick in growth.
Every person that I've tried to keep, usually says: God is leading me to, I'm not being fed, I feel impressed to, the church is getting too big, I don't have the same relationship with the pastor as when we were smaller, there's nothing for me to do, every time I try to move up I am met with struggle........ And then a little while later, you find these people not really attending anywhere or just barely attending at all.
Look, I know I am not a perfect pastor and I am not one to chase people for too long. I have come to the conclusion that all churches should have a revolving door because people are coming and going all the time. Our new strategy is continue reaching into the truly lost population and leave the wondering/know it all sheep alone. This may or may not be the right approach but it keeps me sane and is helping our church to grow. |
I found a megachurch that is changing its city...and that is Elevation Church in Charlotte. Wow! They do have all the extra "stuff" a larger church would boast but they are impacting Charlotte in a huge way. Not to mention, the money they give to missions and ministry partner. I just heard their pastor say that they will be giving $100K to each of their missions and ministry partners this year. As a result, God keeps growing them to the point of expanding from campus to campus....completely surrounding the Charlotte metro area. It's really an amazing thing to watch.
_________________
Stay Positive! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1138
3/10/17 3:10 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Well, I wonder who their "ministry partners" are. The pastor Steve Furtick of Elevation Church lives in a 16,000 sq. ft. house and has his salary set by a selected group of mega pastors (such as Ed Young Jr.). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
3/10/17 3:45 pm
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| church attendance plunging |
Dentanner |
Just read this on FB regarding churches getting information from missionaries:
"We don't see them if at all and there is usually no report of what God is doing in them or the ministry. We are not told their successes nor their needs as a rule. Many churches that have missionaries have grown with the loss of some members and the gaining of new. The new probably have no knowledge that the church even supports a missionary and his/her family."
this is sad! Is it no wonder our churches are not growing?
Dennis
_________________
Dennis Tanner
Administrative Bishop Scotland
Church of God Career Missionary |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 97
3/10/17 4:24 pm
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