Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
r/Actscelerate
Browse by what's: hot | new | rising | top of the week

Question for Post Tribbers
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post Christlaw
Dr. G.E. Ladd's _The Blessed Hope_ is a relatively brief but concise treatment of the subject explaining the post-trib view quite well.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 8:53 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Resident Skeptic wrote:
I was "solid pre-trib" from 1980-1989.


Christlaw wrote:
I was solidly pretrib all my life until I was in my mid 30s...


I'm not sure how much it matters that you were once pre-trib, but it does matter that the Bible is, and always has been, pre-trib.

Christlaw wrote:
... Pre-Tribulationism is a new doctrine, unknown by the church until the last century ...


Not true - totally inaccurate information - and simply repeating it because somebody else said it - that will not somehow make it true.

This teaching (lie) that pre-trib is somehow a new doctrine - this teaching itself is new - it is a new false way to attack the pre-trib rapture.

(I know I previously said I was done on this thread, but I came back for a brief visit - have a nice day and be blessed ...)		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 9:27 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/19/12 9:30 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Christlaw wrote:
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.

Not true, not true, not true.

Here's one - (there's dozens):

Ephraem of Nisibis approx 300 A.D.

Excerpt: See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

And I'm done here, bye for now ....		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/19/12 9:45 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Pastor Nations wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.

Not true, not true, not true.

Here's one - (there's dozens):

Ephraem of Nisibis approx 300 A.D.

Excerpt: See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

And I'm done here, bye for now ....


IF the statement is genuine, he confuses the "Tribulation" with "The Day of the Lord". This is a common error of the pre-tribulationalists.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI		 Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/19/12 10:00 pm
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Pastor Nations wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.

Not true, not true, not true.

Here's one - (there's dozens):

Ephraem of Nisibis approx 300 A.D.

Excerpt: See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

And I'm done here, bye for now ....


IF the statement is genuine, he confuses the "Tribulation" with "The Day of the Lord". This is a common error of the pre-tribulationalists.


I don't see him saying that here, but more to the point of the discussion:

Here is a pre-tribulationist in approx. 300 A.D. - there are dozens more - and some are during the very early church.

To teach there was no pre-tribbers prior to the 1800's is a lie from the pit of hell designed to attack the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture that will take place.		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/21/12 10:34 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
Well it could be a pretrib statement. Since this quote has only in recent years been trumpeted by some pretribbers, it obviously has not been very well known previously, so the accusation of lying by non-pretribbers is really over the top. To lie one has to intentionally seek to deceive someone. Posttribbers that I have studied always encourage their readers to study the scriptures for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

In any case, the scriptural case for the pretrib theory is what is basically nonexistent.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/21/12 10:40 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Christlaw wrote:
Well it could be a pretrib statement. Since this quote has only in recent years been trumpeted by some pretribbers, it obviously has not been very well known previously, so the accusation of lying by non-pretribbers is really over the top. To lie one has to intentionally seek to deceive someone. Posttribbers that I have studied always encourage their readers to study the scriptures for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

In any case, the scriptural case for the pretrib theory is what is basically nonexistent.

OK - not meaning to call post-tribbers liars - I understand they are Christians and well-intentioned.

I believe that the teaching about no pre-tribbers prior to 1800's is a falsehood and should not be used to build their case.

Some people have believed the teaching and then unwittingly perpetuate it.

Hey, there are some theologians a lot smarter than I am, and they are post-trib (they just happen to be wrong...lol)		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/21/12 10:48 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
I do believe it is historically accurate to say that dispensationalism began in the early 1830s with Darby and the Powerscourt prophecy conferences.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/21/12 11:00 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Pastor Nations wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Pastor Nations wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.

Not true, not true, not true.

Here's one - (there's dozens):

Ephraem of Nisibis approx 300 A.D.

Excerpt: See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

And I'm done here, bye for now ....


IF the statement is genuine, he confuses the "Tribulation" with "The Day of the Lord". This is a common error of the pre-tribulationalists.


I don't see him saying that here, but more to the point of the discussion:

Here is a pre-tribulationist in approx. 300 A.D. - there are dozens more - and some are during the very early church.

To teach there was no pre-tribbers prior to the 1800's is a lie from the pit of hell designed to attack the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture that will take place.


It doesn't matter. He is confusing "tribulation" with "wrath". According to Matthew 24 the wrath starts AFTER the tribulation.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI		 Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/21/12 11:07 am
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Christlaw wrote:
I do believe it is historically accurate to say that dispensationalism began in the early 1830s with Darby and the Powerscourt prophecy conferences.


OK, perhaps - but that is a different discussion than saying there was no pre-tribbers prior to 1830.

And, splitting hairs slightly, dispensationalists may say that the dispensations have always been in the Bible, just better undestood in recent times.

Anyway, be blessed ....		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/21/12 11:08 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Pastor Nations
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Pastor Nations wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Pastor Nations wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
It is verifiable historical fact that the pretrib theory was unknown to Christianity before the 1830s.

Not true, not true, not true.

Here's one - (there's dozens):

Ephraem of Nisibis approx 300 A.D.

Excerpt: See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

And I'm done here, bye for now ....


IF the statement is genuine, he confuses the "Tribulation" with "The Day of the Lord". This is a common error of the pre-tribulationalists.


I don't see him saying that here, but more to the point of the discussion:

Here is a pre-tribulationist in approx. 300 A.D. - there are dozens more - and some are during the very early church.

To teach there was no pre-tribbers prior to the 1800's is a lie from the pit of hell designed to attack the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture that will take place.


It doesn't matter. He is confusing "tribulation" with "wrath". According to Matthew 24 the wrath starts AFTER the tribulation.

First of all it matters because the actual discussion was about whether or not there was pre-tribbers prior to 1830, not the accurateness of their doctrine.

Secondly, for the preterists that love to start with Matthew 24, I suggest the following.

Start reading with Genesis 1:1 and then read through to Matthew 23:39.

Then start again with Matthew 25:1 and read through to Revelation 22:21.

Then go back and re-read Matthew 24 and you will understand it a lot better.

Last edited by Pastor Nations on 9/21/12 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total		 Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
9/21/12 11:14 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Pastor Nations wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
I do believe it is historically accurate to say that dispensationalism began in the early 1830s with Darby and the Powerscourt prophecy conferences.


OK, perhaps - but that is a different discussion than saying there was no pre-tribbers prior to 1830.

And, splitting hairs slightly, dispensationalists may say that the dispensations have always been in the Bible, just better undestood in recent times.

Anyway, be blessed ....


Well, I can find infant baptism and Mary worship back then as well. But that does not validate those teachings either. My point was to stress that Post-Tribbers also believe that the Church will escape God's wrath that is poured out on the earth.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI		 Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/21/12 11:14 am
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
Pretribbers often will accuse the posttrib position of somehow denying the scriptures which say we are not appointed to wrath, etc., but such accusations are simply not true. I remember my beloved grandfather, a lifelong A/G pretribber saying to me once, "Why, God would have to be a wife-beater if he were to make the church go through the tribulation."

What the posttrib view says is that true believers will in fact be protected from God's wrath and by no means subjected to it when it is poured out on the UNbelieving world, just as the children of Israel were spared from the plagues which God poured out on the Egyptians in Moses' day.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/21/12 11:33 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
(That does not mean believers will be spared from the wrath of the world, the Devil, demonic forces, the Beast or the Antichrist, however. Believers in the first century and down through the centuries have often had to suffer imprisonment, torture, and death for their faith. Are we any better than they? ).
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/21/12 11:50 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Question for Post Tribbers Link
Curtis Lowe II wrote:
I have a sincere question for those who believe in Post trib. I an honestly trying to grow in my knowledge of the end times. In reading chapter 7 of Revelations tonight I notice some thing.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If these are people who were martyred during the trib. and the rapture and first resurrection is not until the end of the trib. then how are they already in heaven in their white robes.


Obviously from the comment, these folks came out of the great tribulation, so they weren't raptured before the great tribulation.

Btw, why should we assume the whole book is exactly chronological?


Quote:
Could it be that the first resurrection has already taken place and now those who are martyred are resurrected immediately or at least soon after their death and now are also part of the first resurrection of all the righteous as opposed to the second resurrection of the unrighteous?



Notice that the first resurrection occurs in chapter 20.
John the revelator wrote:

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

_________________
Link		 Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/21/12 8:58 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Christlaw wrote:
(That does not mean believers will be spared from the wrath of the world, the Devil, demonic forces, the Beast or the Antichrist, however. Believers in the first century and down through the centuries have often had to suffer imprisonment, torture, and death for their faith. Are we any better than they? ).


Amen!!
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI		 Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/22/12 8:44 am
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post CDpreach05
Is it posible that when taken together we end up with a Mid- Trib rapture? I am not a midtribber. I have always leaned to a pre or post position and as a result I developed a Pan Trib position meaning if I stay right with Christ it will all pan out. But recently I have started trying to reach a solid conclusion. New Member
Posts: 24
9/22/12 8:45 am
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Curtis Lowe II
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Christlaw wrote:
(That does not mean believers will be spared from the wrath of the world, the Devil, demonic forces, the Beast or the Antichrist, however. Believers in the first century and down through the centuries have often had to suffer imprisonment, torture, and death for their faith. Are we any better than they? ).


Amen!!


I understand that but it seems that most of the killing is done by God in Revelations. There is a difference between tribulation which we all suffer at times and the "time of tribulation seen in Revelations.
_________________
"you should've seen it in color"

"Don't taze me bro!"		 Acts-celerater
Posts: 902
9/22/12 12:20 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Christlaw
The posttrib view in does not say that God pours out his wrath on this own people. The temporal judgments from God which are meted out in Revelation are specifically stated as being upon the wicked. The demonic or worldly persecution of Christians is something that also occurs in Revelation, but again, that happens in every age, and in no way makes God out to be unfaithful to take care of his own.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments.		 Friendly Face
Posts: 349
9/22/12 12:25 pm
View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
Contact the Administrator.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.