Actscelerate.com

To Defend Myself

Acts-celerater Posts: 536 **1/30/12 2:18 pm**

This story is very real. To reveal the name of the previous pastor would be harmful to the ministry he is now responsible for. The last thing I want to do is to see another church go through this painful process.

How did it happen?

Step 1: The pastor made all decisions with very little input from others.

Step 2: The focus was on building a daycare center, continuing to borrow to build more and more building...only building a sanctuary after 15 years and 3 other major project. Basically, the church was never trained or discipled to do ministry.

Step 3: The church hired a builder who was not bonded. The bank gave several hundred thousand dollars to this unbonded contractor...who left town with the money, never paying subs & the building left unfinished...thus more money had to borrowed that the church could not afford.

Step 4: After years of lawsuits from the subs & a declining number of kids in the daycare center, the church could not survive financially. The attitude was "if we keep building, they will come". Problem is that there was no intentional strategy to build strong leaders & focus on MISSION.

There are other things that happened, but for the Elder and others who question this story, feel free to send me a PM. I have already communicated one on one with other posters about this thread, so this is not a "hit & run" post situation.

My plea remains the same...PASTORS SHOULD BE FORCED TO STAY AND PAY OFF THE DEBT OR LOSE THEIR CREDENTIALS.

That's my opinion...no way Cleveland will ever enforce it...just a call for accountability that will NEVER happen in the Church of God.

Re: wracking up debt

Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 **1/30/12 2:27 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **1/30/12 4:31 pm**

Looking for friends, others may accept your explanation but I do not.

First off, I find it more than a little ironic that you have such great concern not to harm the reputation of that former pastor that you claim caused such harm to the church that they are going to start a new church outside the CoG.

I know that situations like this have most likely happened but you cannot convince me that one person is to blame! That pastor could not obligate that church to the massive debt you claim without the input from and consent of the churches trustees.

If the trustees know anything at all about their duties they would not have signed off on any indebtedness without approval of the membership.

If, in fact, the general contractor was paid without release of liens from the subs and his supliers that, again, would be the responsibility of the trustees.

It also doesn't make sense from the standpoint that you say the bank released monies to the contractor. Since the church borrowed the money the release fo that money would have to be approved by church officials (again the Trustees have a major portion of the blame if true) before any monies could be turned over to anyone.

What I am posting is from personal experience as we had a very similar experience here at this church. The difference being that we have managed to pay our bills due to the awesome committment of a dedicated core group of members.

BUT, bottom line is, there is NO ONE person that can be singled out for blame. It may be satisfying to do so but it is dishonest at the very least.

The only thing that does do is let's everyone else off the hook! And if that happens the same situation could develop with someone else getting the church in bondage again.

Not one man's fault

Acts-celerater Posts: 536 **1/30/12 7:06 pm**

But the man who led the building, borrowed the money and surrounded himself with "yes men" who did not question anything he did for 14 years LEFT while the people were left behind to pay 2.4 million dollars with less than 50 people.

There is an overseer and others who were also part of it.

My point was & still is this...the man/woman who borrows the money should be forced to stay until the mortgage is manageable.

I have not released names and locations, but am simply asking pastors to think twice before borrowing more than a church can pay off.

Re: Not one man's fault

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/30/12 8:03 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **1/30/12 8:17 pm**

While I agree that it may be a good idea to consider requiring a pastor to stay until the mortgage is 'manageable'. Every situation would be different as far as what would be 'manageable'.

Were (are) you a member of that church? Were you one of the Trustees involved during this time? Who appointed/elected those who you say were yes men? Who elected/appointed the Trustees who were entrusted with the responsibility to make sure something untoward was not perpetrated on the membership?

Why did it take 'several years' before the problems became appearant? Was that because the economic circumstances of the congregation changed over that time?

Was the church at 50 people when the indebtedness occurred? If not was it down to 50 when the former pastor left?

Looking for friends can throw out accusations left and right but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered before a finger can be pointed at the one person who must shoulder the blame.

These are some of the questions that need to be answered before anyone should take your original post seriously.

Not throwing accusations right and left

Acts-celerater Posts: 536 **1/30/12 9:19 pm**

The church never ran much more than 100 from the records.

The trustees at this church are good men, but their objections to stop borrowing were ignored by the pastor and state overseers that kept approving huge loans. The church was seen as "too big to fail" (sound familiar?). Most are still here & have admitted that they should have tried harder to change the course of the church's business decisions.

The reason it took years is that the Church of God kept approving loans to be made as a daycare center brought in a lot of money. There is no accountability in our denomination, which is why as long as reports were sent in and tithe of tithe was paid, there were no questions asked.

I am not accusing anyone because I am not revealing location or persons involved.

To the Elder, I'm sorry that I have struck a nerve with you by calling for pastors to take responsibility for carelessly leading a church into unbearable debt.

This will be my last post on this thread because my heart was to admonish pastors...not be falsely accused by theElder.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **1/31/12 12:41 am**

I haven't accused you of anything other than failing to provide answers to legitimate questions!

First off, I know what I am talking about in raising these questions and so do others on this board who are CoG Bishops or even Trustees for a local CoG congregation.

Nothing that you have described could have taken place without votes of the membership of that church! Beyond that, nothing of what you have described could have occurred without the Trustees of that church signing the loan/mortgage documents. Invoices would not have been approved and checks signed to pay those invoices without the Trustees and/or Elders being aware of them

Those are the simple facts!

If the Trustees and/or Edlers of the church were too weak spined to buck this former pastor those are the men who should bear most of the blame for the situation this church appearantly finds itself in.

You call them 'good men'. They are far from that if they did not do their duty to this church congregation! And if what you have described really happened they did not do their duty.

I don't blame you for saying you aren't going to post on this thread anymore. Obviously you won't answer legitimate questions and anything else you post will just cause your original post to be that much more suspect.

They can only be more of the same as this last post of you: Trying to turn folks attention away from your lack of answers by portraying yourself as a victim who has been falsely accused.

Again, I have accused you of nothing except failing to answer legitimate questions about your accusation against a pastor.

Now Elder

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/31/12 11:27 am**

The man did say he would give you the information if you would inbox him. Shocked

_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **1/31/12 2:36 pm**

I'm awaiting his reply to my pm to him.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **1/31/12 3:22 pm**

2.4 million with only 100 folks?

What bank would do that? Shocked

_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Yes, it can happen

Friendly Face Posts: 160 **1/31/12 6:10 pm**

with only the Pastor and Clerk signing..... ordering---paying, etc.
There are pastors that think they are the only authority. But skipping that..... my question is "Why was this particular church let down by the
Church Of God (State or General) when others are being bailed out every week?"

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **1/31/12 6:24 pm**

That's a VERY good question SheepdogAndy!

As for your comments COG Blessed, I'm afraid you need to get a copy of the Minutes and see just what process if required to commit a church to such an indebtedness.

The Minutes spell out very specifically what procedures has to be followed before a loan can be applied for. It spells out how the loan has to be approved; who has to sign for it, etc. If only the Pastor and Clerk does such a thing they are committing fraud and would be subject to criminal penalties.

Acts-celerater Posts: 671 **2/1/12 11:49 am**

Come on guys! What happened to 70 times 7? Forgive & forget, remember? That's what you guys were preaching to me 2 days ago.
_________________
www.bwcuhrichsville.org

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **2/1/12 12:33 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 **2/1/12 1:31 pm**

Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps

Acts-celerater Posts: 720 **2/1/12 3:39 pm**

Acts-celerater Posts: 671 **2/1/12 3:41 pm**

The Minutes are very confusing and need a total rehaul. Many of our churches don't run by the Minutes until trouble comes. Very sad!
_________________
www.bwcuhrichsville.org

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 **2/1/12 4:14 pm**

Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 **2/2/12 9:31 am**