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Not Ordaing women won't hurt church growth. Ordaining them won't increase it.

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **7/25/17 11:41 am**

My Grandmother Daugherty, was preaching all the way back in the 1930's. She was a life-long minister of the Gospel, but the denomination within which she ministered, did not Ordain women. That didn't seem to bother her.

When she was 72 years old (My Grandfather had passed), she heard of a little church that could not find a Pastor. There was not enough money to support one. So, Grandmother asked to become Pastor of the tiny church located in a very isolated area of the Northwest U.S.

She pastored the church for three years and helped increase the congregation to where it could partially support a male Pastor. So, there is no hesitation at all on my part if a denomination decides to Ordain women or not.

However, some have stated that not Ordaining women is hurting church growth. The Southern Baptists, 16 million members, do not Ordain women. That has not hurt their church growth.

Ist Timothy 2:12 says, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." KJV

The World English Bible reads, "I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness."

Of all the male preachers who are against women being Ordained, how many of them also do not allow women to teach? How many of them pastor where women are silent? Doesn't it seem to be a bit hypocritical to enforce only one and not the other two as well?

Then, there is the phrase where the writer of I Timothy proclaims, "I do not permit..." Because he did not "permit" it, does that mean it is against God to do it? In this particular case, Paul used the personal pronoun "I." He did not say it was against God.

IF MEN GIVE WOMEN PERMISSION, how is she usurping their authority if she does that for which they gave permission?

Will Ordaining women cause a denomination to grow? As in the case of my Grandmother pastoring a church no man wanted, there is most likely many instances where a woman pastor has increased the attendance of a church. In fact, in the majority of churches, without the women, there would hardly be a church in that location.

However, to my knowledge, there is no denomination that has seen increase just because they Ordained women. There is however something noteworthy.

it seems groups that have Ordained women, have become more and more liberal with enormous decline being a result. Of course, that is not exclusively the women's fault. What caused the decline of those once conservative groups, is because they succumbed to social pressures instead of holding the Scriptural line. Members have dropped out or have left with splinter groups that have broken away.

No, this is not a campaign to Ordain women nor to keep them from being Ordained. However, those in leadership and ministers who vote on the organization's Agenda, should do what they feel Scripture says, and not make rules for or against any issue, because of social changes or pressures.

Society is almost always out-of-step with Scripture. Our lives as Christians, is based on Scripture, not whichever way society is trending at the moment.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

Doyle
writedoyle@gmail.com
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/25/17 12:36 pm**

https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WXeBL-9K2mG

Well Doyle,

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **7/25/17 1:29 pm**

your statement is flawed from the outset [quote it seems groups that have Ordained women, have become more and more liberal with enormous decline being a result. Of course, that is not exclusively the women's fault. What caused the decline of those once conservative groups, is because they succumbed to social pressures instead of holding the Scriptural line. Members have dropped out or have left with splinter groups that have broken away. [/quote]

The Assemblies of God ordained the first woman as a minister in our First General Council in 1914. We have NOT become more liberal (for the most part - as our 16 Tenets of Faith remain the same since our second General Council) and in fact we are one of the fastest growing denominations in America and the Fastest growing denomination in the World. We surpassed the Presbyterians several years ago.

So, your premise is flawed. AND you and many other chauvinists misread, mis-translate and mis-apply the scriptures you quoted. As with many other topics on this forum, we have discussed Women in ministry ad nauseum here with few changing their opinions and I am not interested in arguing the point again. But, your comment is in error at the outset.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/26/17 12:58 pm**

If women are called and gifted by God to certain ministries, and the church refuses to recognize the giftings and callings by ordaining them to those ministries, how could that not hurt the growth of the church?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **7/26/17 1:06 pm**

According to the article on the Assemblies of God in the New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements (2002, 2003) Revised and Expanded Edition, Stanley Burgess, Editor, page 335, the AG did not allow women to vote in the General Council until 1920, and full ordination was not granted by the AG to women until 1935. Highly influential AG Superintendents EN Bell and ES Williams both strongly opposed women pastors, with Bell urging that churches promote men to leadership in female-led congregations as soon as possible. Bell considered women ministers God's second best--useful for instances in which men "failed God." Williams argued, like many still do today within Pentecostalism, that God had "placed headship" in males.

While I applaud the AG's allowance of women to be ordained equivalently to men, I have to also say that in my experience within the AG, women ministers were not nearly as widely accepted as they are in the Foursquare denomination.

The word "usurp"

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/26/17 1:07 pm**

The word that is translated "usurp" in 1 Timothy 2:12 is authenteo. It is only used one time in the whole New Testament. It has a violent connotation.
It should be simple enough to see that God put women in leadership positions in the Bible, so obviously "usurping authority" can't mean merely being in a leadership position. If God calls a woman to a leadership position, she doesn't need a man's "permission" to do what God has called her to do, but the church as a whole is remiss if it does not affirm God's calling.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/26/17 1:43 pm**

Does it really come down to titles?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1994 **7/26/17 2:16 pm**

Growing up in the COGOP I was conditioned by the practice of Ordination of male ministers to the office of Bishop (or Deacon), including the requirements that they be the husband of one wife. At the same time there was a long history of women "Licensed Ministers" in all most every level of ministry. Within my lifetime women did not vote in the local church, conventions or assemblies, but that changed around 1990, as did their authorization to conduct business conferences and administer sacraments.

Before that change (and after), there were women evangelists, camp directors, pastors, state office staff and general appointees. Both A. J. Tomlinson and M. A. Tomlinson appointed women "missionaries" who oversaw works in Caribbean nations and New Zealand as early as 1935. They were appointed at the assembly along with the State/National Overseers. The works they were responsible for had existing churches they "oversaw" for the General Overseer.

Now we have Ordained Women Ministers, along with women deacons (which are now ordained in the local church, it is not a "general" ordination as it was at one time), and women still occupy every level of leadership, even district overseer. However, the stopping point is at State/National Overseer and General Overseer. Women serve on the key assembly committees that bring issues (the agenda) to the floor for discussion and vote, in which women fully participate.

The title "Bishop" is the "stumbling block". I favor the abandonment of that title in regards to what it says on my "ordination". "Ordained Minister" works for me, and I don't mind having the same thing as women ministers. Let them minister as God has called them. If they can get themselves elected to leadership, let them lead with their gifts. If they fail, well guys we know what happens to us when we fail. Equal requirements, equal obedience to go, equal duties when you get there. No excuses, male or female alike.

In the future, "bishop" only in function not in ordination!

Mat

PS Nowadays you can't "swing a dead cat" without hitting a bunch of Bishops. Men and women alike. Just call me "brother".

Re: Does it really come down to titles?

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **7/26/17 5:28 pm**

Re: The word "usurp"

Friendly Face Posts: 253 **7/26/17 5:31 pm**

Re: The word "usurp"

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1994 **7/26/17 7:21 pm**

brother james

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **7/29/17 5:49 pm**

Almost all religious organizations slowly move toward being more liberal than when founded, even Pentecostal groups. That includes the COG and the AG. In some ways, both the AG and the COG are unrecognizable when compared now to their former ultra-conservatism.

Again, I have no problem with women being Ordained. If a particular organization wants to Ordain women, that is up to them. If not, that is up to them too.

My point was that Ordaining women will not necessarily bring increased denominational church growth. Also, though I do not have a problem with women being Ordained, one really has to "pretzelize" Scripture by trying to twist it and explain away requirements for Bishops, and that admonition of Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:12 where he proclaims, "I do not allow..."

For those who favor the Ordination of women, a key discussion will be that Paul did not say God told him to take that stance. At other times on various situations in Scripture, Paul said, "Not I, but the Lord." Or, "Not the Lord, but I." In the case of I Timothy 2:12, it seems he did neither.
,
His use of the personal pronoun "I do not allow..." could offer a small opening in Scripture for those who favor Ordaining women.

Brother James, mature people can discuss something, agree or disagree, without making negative personal comments. Your comment that I am a "chauvinist" because I see things a bit different than you, does not seem to live up to the mature person you most likely are.

I serve as a hospital Chaplain. We conduct Chaplain training in a hospital setting. Women are welcome. There are times when women candidates outnumber the men. They make excellent Chaplains. When people are hurting, in my opinion, the female Chaplains seem to have a more caring bedside manner.

As far as assignments made in our hospital, women have exactly the same freedoms of ministry and service as men. They are on the front-line in the Emergency Room or ICU.

Some of them are members of church organizations that Ordain women. Others serve where women are not allowed to be Ordained. We leave that to them and their church affiliation.

Doyle
writedoyle@gmail.com
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Doyle

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **7/29/17 7:51 pm**

Please accept my apology if I offended you with the use of "chauvinist". However, I meant no disrespect, my usage stems from this definition from the [/i]Free Dictionary[i] 2. Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind. It is not pejorative necessarily nor did I intend it to be, merely stating the facts as I see them. Biblical Chauvinists necessarily see scripture with a predisposed bias of men's superiority over women in leadership roles in the church. You have been taught/learned that men are in a superior role in the church. Bonnie might have a different viewpoint and obviously the AG sees it differently than you and they have some pretty good scholars and would hardly be classified as liberal. Perhaps more liberal than in 1914 but certainly as conservative as the average COG I would think.

So while I meant no disrespect and am reasonably mature, it wasn't name calling I was involved in but rather a classification nomenclature.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/29/17 8:33 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/29/17 9:02 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1865 **8/1/17 3:03 pm**

I have been taught by some very knowledgeable women over the course of my lifetime. Beginning with my mother. Then my teachers in the public schools. My Sunday school teachers. You'll get no argument from me that God doesn't use women to teach men or that they need to keep their mouths shut.

I still wrestle with the idea of women being overseers simply because Paul does not seem to be arguing from culture, but rather appealing to the order of Creation. But we can agree to disagree.

As to the impact on church growth, I'm really not sure what impact the ordination of women contributes, if any. I would be curious to know how many thriving churches are pastored by women. I'm not a chauvinist so that's not where I'm coming from. But of all the churches I know that are pastored by a female, the attendance is really low. The exception being a Central United Methodist church nearby (but alas they also believe in same-sex marriage and ordination of homosexual clergy).

Tell the truth Bonnie- you really just want to add "Bishop" in front of your name don't you? Twisted Evil

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **8/2/17 8:51 am**

Bonnie & interested others

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/2/17 9:41 am**

check out New Life Assembly in Pembrooke Pines, Fl (Miami).
http://www.nl-fl.org/pastor.htm
Pastor Maria Kahleel is one of the most dynamic, powerful speakers and leaders in the AG. New Life is running upwards of 700-1000. She is the Lead Pastor and has been for many years now. And here is something for OTCP, she has an earned D. Min from AGTS (Assemblies of God Theological Seminary) but she doesn't even call herself Doctor. She has been a Presbyter (AB to you) of the Florida District of the AG and served on national AG leadership committees. She is a wonderful example of how God can and does use women in leadership roles if chauvinistic men will allow them to. Just sayin...

I have heard her speak many times and she is about as powerful and Spirit-filled and anointed of God as ANY man I have ever heard.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **8/2/17 1:59 pm**

Check out the web site of Barbara Yoder in Ann Arbor, MI.. Her church at one time was around 4000. She is the lead pastor and an apostle. Her church has multi-pastors. She is awesome. She was a one time nurse and atheist before she was saved. You can listen to some of her online sermons.

She speaks all over world and is around 75-80 years of age.

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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **8/5/17 9:46 am**