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Quiet Wyatt |
Another assumption seems to be that bearing fruit equals numerical growth, and that if a church isn't growing numerically, it is at best backslidden and at worst totally apostate. Typically one hears phrases such as, "Where there's life there's growth," etc.
Related to this is the idea that if we will simply find and follow the right formula, church growth HAS to happen.
Any true pastor wants his flock to be spiritually healthy and reaching out to the world, and will work and pray and minister to that end. I absolutely cringe when I hear Pastor X of "The Church of What's Happening Now" make fun of all the little churches running 50 or less as not even worthy of existence. Not saying it has happened here on Actscelerate that much that I recall (though it seems implied in some of comments), but I have heard that sort of thing explicitly from big-time pastors preaching in conferences more than once, unfortunately.
It's like the playground bully picking on the little guy. What did the little guy ever do to the big guy to deserve such treatment? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
10/17/12 4:52 pm
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Clint Wills |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | If a group of "saints" refuses to seek the lost, then a change must happen and that may need to happen with ot without thier cooperation |
Is there a New Testament scriptural precedent for one human (or group) forcing a change on another group without that group's cooperation? |
It isn't forcing people to do anything they don't want to do if you simply do what God has told you to do. When we came to Bend we didn't "make" anyone do anything differently...we just did things differently. The ones that wanted to be a part of it stayed, and those that didn't left. We didn't force them to participate or to leave. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
10/17/12 5:33 pm
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bonnie knox |
| I was just wondering if there was an example in the New Testament of where a pastor or AB went into an area where believers were already meeting and gave them the option of leaving or doing things his way. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 6:17 pm
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Cojak |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I was just wondering if there was an example in the New Testament of where a pastor or AB went into an area where believers were already meeting and gave them the option of leaving or doing things his way. |
I don't think you will find that. 
It was Frank S. who did it his way!  (or so he said!) 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
10/17/12 6:36 pm
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Clint Wills |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I was just wondering if there was an example in the New Testament of where a pastor or AB went into an area where believers were already meeting and gave them the option of leaving or doing things his way. |
Those usually aren't the options. In our case the people were welcome to come and warm the pew and do nothing, but we were going to be reaching out in to the community. When the church is 10-12 people and 4 of them decide that they are doing it that way, then the tides can turn. Ironically, the only people we lost in that have since come back and apologized for the way they left. They admitted that they didn't care to reach the world, and that they were wrong for that.
Following the Spirit is always right. Winning souls is ALWAYS right. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
10/17/12 6:59 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | It was Frank S. who did it his way! (or so he said!) |
Ha, and all this time I was thinking it was Elvis. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 6:59 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Following the Spirit is always right. Winning souls is ALWAYS right. |
I agree that following the Spirit is always right (and I would be suspicious of anyone who is arrogant enough to claim he always does). As far as winning souls, the end justifies the means as long as the means don't require going against the Word and the direction of the Spirit.
You know the old saying, it is never right to do wrong to do right. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 7:07 pm
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| A very sad time |
COG Blessed |
| when the elderly have no place to worship..... they aren't worthy of that privilege any more . They aren't physically and financially able to build another building so they need to just worship in a home . Yes, they would like to be able to do all the things they used to do . Being able to "go to church to worship" mean as much to them as it ever did. We don't know whose family they spend their time praying for that will accept salvation, what young man that God will call to preach thru their prayers, the safe keeping of our missionaries they ask God to oversee, praying for our church and nations leadership........ nor how many of them are praying for you! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 160
10/17/12 10:31 pm
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| Re: A very sad time |
Cojak |
| COG Blessed wrote: | | when the elderly have no place to worship..... they aren't worthy of that privilege any more . They aren't physically and financially able to build another building so they need to just worship in a home . Yes, they would like to be able to do all the things they used to do . Being able to "go to church to worship" mean as much to them as it ever did. We don't know whose family they spend their time praying for that will accept salvation, what young man that God will call to preach thru their prayers, the safe keeping of our missionaries they ask God to oversee, praying for our church and nations leadership........ nor how many of them are praying for you! |
A good friend of mine who can barely walk, leaves church early, as I do on Sunday morning. We have a crowd and cannot handle the rush to leave, we would get run over. He is a retired vet of WWII and I a retiree also. I asked,"John how are you," leaning against the church wall, he says, 'Jac, I think every day is the last.'
Now I know no one is saying throw the old folk out, but it does come across that way sometime. I'm old also, But John is in his 80's and has done his part for the country and his Lord. I repeat, I know that leaving this saint of God is not what this is about, but take care. If time lasts and you do also, one day it will be you.
From a tombstone, "Take heed, as you are, I once was, As I am You will be." You can take that to the bank. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
10/18/12 12:48 am
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| So Ashamed |
burned out |
At this very moment I am so ashamed of the denomination of which I am a part. I am a member of an eclectic local assembly. Some old, some young, some in between...some wear dress clothes, some wear jeans, some wear shorts. We are a growing congregation that has only been around for a few years. In many ways I believe we are a great model for what should be happening in the Church of God.
However, just because another church does it differently...just because another church has not been able to grow...just because another church is full of elderly (like it or not this is true in most of the churches that would be closed in this scenario)...does not mean that we should go in and strip that church of all they have built for the Kingdom.
This reminds me of Lord Cromwell and King Henry VIII. When they decided that needed more funds, they went in and stripped the churches. Leaving the those who had very little to begin with, with even less.
Sorry this is a horrible idea. You need more funds, then waste less money.
_________________
Man, am I tired. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 179
10/18/12 8:35 am
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| Re: So Ashamed |
Cojak |
| burned out wrote: |
This reminds me of Lord Cromwell and King Henry VIII. When they decided that needed more funds, they went in and stripped the churches. Leaving the those who had very little to begin with, with even less.
Sorry this is a horrible idea. You need more funds, then waste less money. |
Fact there jack!
Too bad wise use of assets cannot be done retroactively.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
10/18/12 8:59 am
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| Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. |
chainrattler |
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | | chainrattler wrote: | | W. Ray Williams wrote: | | chainrattler wrote: | | W. Ray Williams wrote: | | The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples. |
Meeting the needs of others?
What needs?
What others?
Please be more specific. I'm serious. I hear phrases like this all the time but they are so generic, as if everybody already knows what one is talking about.
From what I have read, preaching literally means to make a proclamation as a herald (an official announcer or spokesperson). The announcement is what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This announcement is followed by a command to repent and believe the good news. The command to repent is accompanied by a warning of the coming Day of Judgment when the wrath of God will be poured out on those who do not believe.
What has that got to do with "meeting needs", whatever that means?
And meeting whose needs? The needs of the ungodly and unbelieving?
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=623320#623320 |
The Great Commandment tells us to love the Lord with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourself. We are also taught, who is your neighbor and learn the story of the Good Samaritan. In other words, our neighbor is whoever is in need. We are taught to love our enemies, even pray for them. |
Thank you.
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | | Matthew 25 is one of the clearest pictures of the judgement found in the New Testament. In that text we learn that the judge separates the good from the evil. The deciding factor was whether they had fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, clothed the naked and sheltered the homeless. |
So I have another question, is every human being on earth a brother of Jesus?
The reason I ask, is because the King says to both groups "Whatever you did or did not do to the least of these brothers of mine..." So, is Jesus teaching us that all people are his brothers?
If so, maybe we need to take another look at the gospel of inclusion.
If not, that sort of limits the parameters of the statement to not include anybody and everybody.
In fact, the way I see it, the people being judged are not believers in Jesus Christ. On the contrary, the brothers Jesus is referring to are the believers (both Jew and Gentile), and the people being judged are those outside the church. |
It depends on what translation you are using. The NLT says "brothers and sisters", KJV and NIV simply says "the least of these". So using this passage of Scripture to develop a theology that we are only responsible for caring for other believers would be flawed. |
Matt.
25:40 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐρεῖ αὐτοῖς Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ἐφ᾽ ὅσον ἐποιήσατε ἑνὶ τούτων τῶν ἀδελφῶν μου τῶν ἐλαχίστων ἐμοὶ ἐποιήσατε
The first time Jesus makes the statement in 25:40 it is to the sheep, and He uses the word ἀδελφῶν, which is "brothers".
The second time He makes the statement, it is to the goats, and it is just "the least of these", but I think a case could be made that He is talking about the same group in 25:45 as He was in 25:40.
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | If we look in MT 9 Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house (a Tax collector at the time). The religious elites wanted to know why Jesus was there amidst sinners (some other sinners had come over to eat). Jesus responded that he was called to those that needed a doctor, not those that were perceived as healthy.
In other words, Jesus was telling us his call was to those that were outside the faith, those in need, those hurting. If I am a Christ-follower, i must be reaching out to the same people Jesus did. |
We need more information about what Jesus was doing and saying while He was there in order to ascertain what kind of "help" He was giving them. It would be helpful to have that information so we would know what we should do that would match what Jesus did.
Unfortunately, all we know is that He was there. I don't think He was multiplying loaves and fishes or turning water into wine. He was having dinner with them not providing or making dinner for them. So, what "needs" was He meeting and how was He meeting them?
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | Now you and I will disagree on who is being judged. My research leads me to believe this a judgement of all people. I am not a dispensationalist, I do not take a stand on pre-trib, etc as I do not believe the Bible is clear and specific about an order of events the way it was envisioned in the 1830s and forward. (beginning of the dispensational movement)
I know there is an end coming. I anticipate it soon. All will be judged. There will be battles, catching away, resurrection of dead, etc. I believe everything the Bible says about the end of time. I just do not believe in the theoretical construct that theologians have built around their particular reading of the text. |
Based on a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6:
"Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years."
I believe the first resurrection is limited to those who are beheaded during the reign of Antichrist, just like the text says.
Evangelical tradition says that the first resurrection is in "stages", beginning with Christ and including righteous Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, and those who are alive and remain at His coming, in addition to the ones beheaded. Of course, this is of necessity to make everything "fit" with their eschatology, it is not what the text says.
If we go with the literal interpretation that I am suggesting that means that you and I and every other Christian besides the "tribulation saints" will be part of the second resurrection (after the 1000 year reign of Christ) and not immune to the second death. In that case, your idea of everyone being judged in Matthew 25 fits perfectly, and I don't disagree with it.
However, a weakness with this argument is what is said elsewhere about the "last trump". |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
10/18/12 5:35 pm
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chainrattler |
| Clint Wills wrote: | | chainrattler wrote: | | Clint Wills wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does. |
No...but if we don't use the talents that we are given, then we can't be too surprised when they are taken away from us. |
They are not taken away until the end, when we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, not now. |
Then what is the significance of it being given to the other servant? Surely once we get to the judgement seat God isn't going to take from one and give that to another. That just doesn't make sense. |
It makes perfect sense. It is referencing the level of responsibility and authority to be given to the servants (us) in the age to come.
Look at the entire story, it is Jesus talking about what is going to happen when the Master (Jesus) returns (from heaven) and calls his servants (us) to give an account of our faithfulness in using our talents (now) and rewarding them with more take with them (into the new heaven and new earth) |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
10/18/12 5:40 pm
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