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Re: GA Topics

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/25/14 5:28 pm**

Nick Park wrote:

"Btw, I don't think it is fair to blame individual leaders, past or present, for what the General Assembly has become. Large organisations develop a culture & momentum all of their own. The 4 years I spent on the Council of 18 left me with the impression that no one person, not even a General Overseer, can turn around a runaway train in the short time they are in office. To make meaningful changes means axing departments, terminating employees, and changing bylaws. Every step towards reform will be resisted bitterly - not least here on this board."

Nick, your statement about how hard it would be to turn around the culture in the COG is what I have always believed. A large part of the OB's don't see the need for change, especially if they like the current political system. Change would mean sacrifice and someone will have to suffer. The only real change I have seen in the last 20 years had to do with financial downturn. Will it be possible for change without catastrophic events from the outside? Seems like a more Godly plan would be to plan and implement change from within the organization (with leadership).

When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **1/25/14 9:15 pm**

I didn't hear everything Flavis Burroughs stated during various General Assemblies but I don't ever remember him calling anyone a rascal. I do remember an exchange between Burroughs and Ray Hughes who was serving as Moderator.

If I remember correctly, Hughes said something about Burroughs not voting for him and Burroughs replied, "Brother Hughes, I didn't vote against you. I simply voted for someone else."

Only once was I with Flavis Burroughs and that was when I was doing a church tour raising funds for a Forward In Faith telecast. Burroughs allowed me to come to his church for that one service and during our time together, he didn't say anything negative about any person in particular. He did have some issues with "The System" and was not reluctant to share that.

Years later, when Ray Hughes was incredibly sick and in the hospital, Burroughs drove from Oxford, Alabama area to Cleveland and visited Brother Hughes.

Burroughs later called me and he was crying. He said he went into Bro. Hugh's room and Brother Hughes was asleep. He stood there and had a prayer for Brother Hugh's and while he was praying, Brother Hughes woke up.

"Flavis, is that you?" Hughes asked.

"Yes, it is me Brother Hughes," Burroughs said as he walked to the bedside. "I heard you were suffering and came to pray and tell you I love you."

According to what I was told, Hughes reached out his hand and the two men who had in the past had some strong verbal disagreements, prayed together and shared their Christian love for each other.

Burroughs didn't say why he called me and told me the story but it may have been because maybe he felt there would come a time when I'd have the opportunity to share that the two men had done some mending of the strained relation that had at times existed between them.

I'm sharing what I was told and if it is true, it speaks well of both men. Sometimes it takes big men to work through it when there have been strained relations between them.

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Re: When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **1/26/14 10:06 am**

Re: When Flavis Burroughs visited R. Hughes in the hospital

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **1/26/14 10:11 am**

Acts-celerater Posts: 671 **1/27/14 1:39 pm**

My question as a local pastor of a small rural church is this, what does attending the General Assembly do for me?

Another question is why don't we have it more centrally located in the Bible-belt of America where most our membership resides?
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www.bwcuhrichsville.org

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **1/27/14 2:34 pm**

I'm not the authority but let me try. The reason you go to the Assembly is to be a part of the process. It is your church and it is a convention that you should attend. Instead of what will it do for you, how can you contribute to your church by attending?

The Assembly goes to places where they can get good rates and they try to move it around a bit. In 2016, it will be in Nashville, TN.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **1/27/14 2:34 pm**

Nick

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/27/14 5:32 pm**

OB's in the SE USA don't think anyone else counts. Rolling Eyes

Re: Nick

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **1/27/14 5:49 pm**

Re: Nick

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1037 **1/27/14 8:11 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/27/14 10:56 pm**

If you are not considerate of other OB's in Indonesia that have larger numbers than the SE USA OB's some might think they don't count. I might think they don't count enough to move the GA to Indonesia. I can understand getting the feathers riled on some OB's here in the SE USA.

Re: Nick

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/28/14 12:39 am**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **1/28/14 9:32 am**

For what it's worth, I'm much happier to be flying 9 hours to Orlando for this year's GA than I would be if I were flying 18 hours to Jakarta,Indonesia. Smile

My comment about Indonesia was to demonstrate that going by where the majority of our ministers or members happen to live is most certainly NOT a consideration as to where should be the venue for the GA.

The venue of the GA will of course continue to be in the US for two reasons - history and money.

1. History. We are a denomination that began in the mountains of North Carolina & Tennessee. Our headquarters are in the SE United States. Shipping our entire General Office leadership and administration to another nation for a GA would be a ludicrous and massive expense from funds that are already cut to the bone.

2. Money. The majority of the money that funds the Church of God comes from churches in the US. This is not unique to our denomination, but is part of the overall demographics of evangelicalism. Less than 10% of evangelical Christians in the world live in North America, but over 90% of the wealth owned by evangelical Christians in the world is owned by the Christians who live in North America. Them that has the gold makes the rules.

Church of God membership in the US is currently somewhere between 10% and 20% of our worldwide membership. It is interesting to speculate as to what will happen if current trends continue. What if the US ends up comprising only 5% of the Church of God, or even 1%? (Both of these are real possibilities within the next century if the Lord tarries and current growth patterns continue) In fact, given the growth of the Church in fast-growing economies such as China - it is possible the financial center of the Church of God could shift elsewhere in the future.

In some ways this mirrors what happened in the First Century of Christianity when a Jewish religion headquartered in Jerusalem began to transition into a largely Gentile movement. It required people of extreme grace, both among the Jews and the Gentiles, to preserve unity. That is the context in which Paul urged the Gentile Churches in Macedonia to send financial aid to the Jerusalem Church in time of famine. The people of grace such as Paul, Peter and James had to prevail over Judaizers on the one side, and anti-semites on the other.

And that is where the comments about people in the SE United States not caring about the rest of the world can be both thought provoking but also divisive and dangerous. In my experience there are many CoG people in the South who are very interested in what is happening internationally and eager to learn how they can be more involved. There are also others who rarely think outside their own experience - that is not to say that they are uncaring in a bad or bigotted way - the idea that the majority of the Church of God lives overseas, will never have the opportunity to attend a GA, and has never eaten grits just never really crosses their mind.

Yes, there are one or two who don't care. There have been a few ministers who have told me in no uncertain terms that, by contributing my views on how the Church of God can be more international that I am an ungrateful foreigner who refuses to play by the rules. I should keep my mouth shut when the big boys are talking, take a regular check from World Missions, and come to the GA every two years so I can dress up in native dress on Missions Night, carry my national flag and smile for the TV cameras.

Thankfully such people are in a small minority - a minority that is decreasing both numerically and in influence within the Church of God. Most ministers and members I encounter, particularly those in higher levels of leadership within our movement, are genuinely interested in hearing a view from a different perspective. They show a willingness to learn from our experience with exponential church growth in a highly secularised society, and have been incredibly gracious in allowing me a voice in our denomination, including inviting me to contribute to our official publications.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland

http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 **1/28/14 10:59 am**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **1/28/14 11:12 am**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/28/14 2:11 pm**

Tom Sterbens wrote:

I could go further regarding (more specifically) the leadership culture of the COG and things I see as prohibitive that are "built in" to our system...and part of the problem IS what "the system" itself reinforces.
[b]The system affects HOW we think about things...
The system affects HOW we approach conflict resolution...
The system affects WHAT we will actually talk about (organizational conversation)...
The system defines our sacred cows...and the size of the sacred cow defines the "DISCUSSABLES..." and make no mistake...sacred cows are nothing other than full grown golden calves.[/b]

However, whenever ingrained systemic realities are challenged, typically the voice challenging those realities is marginalized as disloyal, negative, vengeful, a malcontent or simply angry because "you've been passed-over." This true of most any organization. At the root of all this is fear (The guiding DNA of fallen mankind)."

I take it the system you are referring to is not the Holy Spirit, but a political system that has taken the place of the Holy Spirit. When good men or women get in a bad habit or a bad system they grow to love it and embrace it. They will fight and hurt others that try to change the bad system.

What do addicts do? They want to keep their old buddies and keep on doing their drugs. Same way with old systems.

Many have been hurt by this system. If you take on this system get ready for heartache. It will take more than all of us getting together and singing kumbaya at the GA.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **1/28/14 2:25 pm**

Warning-unpopular post

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **1/28/14 4:40 pm**

Dare I say this?
If we restored the original purpose of General Assembly and did away with the political maneuvering, speech making, etc. and used it as a time of prayer, searching the Scriptures and such, would a lot fewer men attend?

I have to say this. Some live for the garbage and all of the political movements of the denomination. They would be sorely disappointed if it were Minot there.

I have seen AB's ask their ministers to spend time fasting during multiple prayer conferences. Special requests to gather and pray went forth. One AB begged his men to gather and pray. My wife and I were there every time with a handful of others. Dare I say that a General Assembly spent doing something as "mild" as prayer and searching the scriptures would not have the drawing power of "who is going to go where or who is staying in what state or will we ordain women this time or bring it up next time."

Just honestly thinking out loud
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Friendly Face Posts: 254 **1/28/14 7:19 pm**

My name is Billy Humphrey from Baltimore, MD and I'd like to move previous question on all business before the house.