 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 |
gadawg |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | i'm not claiming to be the best or the brightest. and i do think the the CoG can & probably will change one day. the problem is...we don't know when that day will be. will it be when enough people get too old to be in leadership? even then, will it happen?
one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
this is frustrating to see all of this. i know it's happening in the denomination...but it's SO RARE. for me, i just wasn't willing to wait on the changes. i felt like this was my time and i needed to position myself in the best place for growth.
i do think the CG can & will change. and hopefully the todd sturgell's, troy hamby's, brian hunters, dart stricklands, etc of the movement will help that happen. hopefully they will be given the voice to make that happen. |
I copied and pasted the following from the Oak Leaf Church website:
About Eternal Security: Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do.
Does this mean they believe in once saved always saved? That has always been my point about emerging. No conviction. You can't do wrong. Just come as you are and no matter what, we'll make you feel good! Sorry! Sin is sin and there is consequences for sin and a pastor/church has to stand up against sin and preach about the consequences thereof or he/she is not a good shepherd. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 647
3/31/07 10:42 pm
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
Travis Johnson |
gadawg,
Michael's church is not an emerging church...nowhere close. Oak Leaf is SBC. The doctrine that you quoted is an orthodox view of Scripture. Though it is not held by me, it is held by a lot of well respected church leaders ranging from Calvin to perhaps even some of our largest church pastors and professors in our COG educational institutions.
Kevin's point was about growth. The growth of Oak Leaf has nothing to do with that doctrine. It is a story worth checking out. It is a case study in how to open a church. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/31/07 10:49 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Salvation |
atouchoffolly |
Hey dawg,
Your view of salvation seems limited to me. I agree that sin is a problem but salvation doesn't happen all at once.
We are justified and sanctified. At death we are glorified. The process is salvation. Salvation that doesn't save you at the end wasn't salvation at all.
Think of it as an act that happens and then continues to happen.
Even Paul says he wait for his salvation.
_________________
If there is a time to hate, as Ecclesiastes suggests, it is when we are children, when we don't know any better, when we think hate is something we can's help. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 111
3/31/07 10:51 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
KevinLloyd |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | gadawg,
Michael's church is not an emerging church...nowhere close. Oak Leaf is SBC. The doctrine that you quoted is an orthodox view of Scripture. Though it is not held by me, it is held by a lot of well respected church leaders ranging from Calvin to perhaps even some of our largest church pastors and professors in our COG educational institutions.
Kevin's point was about growth. The growth of Oak Leaf has nothing to do with that doctrine. It is a story worth checking out. It is a case study in how to open a church. |
you're exactly right. anyone who is thinking about launching a church should check oak leaf out. they have gone into a smaller town and really started right.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 10:57 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
| gadawg wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | i'm not claiming to be the best or the brightest. and i do think the the CoG can & probably will change one day. the problem is...we don't know when that day will be. will it be when enough people get too old to be in leadership? even then, will it happen?
one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
this is frustrating to see all of this. i know it's happening in the denomination...but it's SO RARE. for me, i just wasn't willing to wait on the changes. i felt like this was my time and i needed to position myself in the best place for growth.
i do think the CG can & will change. and hopefully the todd sturgell's, troy hamby's, brian hunters, dart stricklands, etc of the movement will help that happen. hopefully they will be given the voice to make that happen. |
I copied and pasted the following from the Oak Leaf Church website:
About Eternal Security: Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do.
Does this mean they believe in once saved always saved? That has always been my point about emerging. No conviction. You can't do wrong. Just come as you are and no matter what, we'll make you feel good! Sorry! Sin is sin and there is consequences for sin and a pastor/church has to stand up against sin and preach about the consequences thereof or he/she is not a good shepherd. |
Lord help us, I can go to a small town and build a massive church by preaching that doctrine. Kevin, how is it you could even associate your desire to minister with their practice? You're not COG anymore, but I assume your still pentecostal right? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 11:06 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Travis Johnson |
| Telecaster wrote: | | gadawg wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | i'm not claiming to be the best or the brightest. and i do think the the CoG can & probably will change one day. the problem is...we don't know when that day will be. will it be when enough people get too old to be in leadership? even then, will it happen?
one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
this is frustrating to see all of this. i know it's happening in the denomination...but it's SO RARE. for me, i just wasn't willing to wait on the changes. i felt like this was my time and i needed to position myself in the best place for growth.
i do think the CG can & will change. and hopefully the todd sturgell's, troy hamby's, brian hunters, dart stricklands, etc of the movement will help that happen. hopefully they will be given the voice to make that happen. |
I copied and pasted the following from the Oak Leaf Church website:
About Eternal Security: Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do.
Does this mean they believe in once saved always saved? That has always been my point about emerging. No conviction. You can't do wrong. Just come as you are and no matter what, we'll make you feel good! Sorry! Sin is sin and there is consequences for sin and a pastor/church has to stand up against sin and preach about the consequences thereof or he/she is not a good shepherd. |
Lord help us, I can go to a small town and build a massive church by preaching that doctrine. Kevin, how is it you could even associate your desire to minister with their practice? You're not COG anymore, but I assume your still pentecostal right? |
Sometimes, I wonder if Actscelerate isn't really the Twilight Zone. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/31/07 11:07 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | gadawg,
Michael's church is not an emerging church...nowhere close. Oak Leaf is SBC. The doctrine that you quoted is an orthodox view of Scripture. Though it is not held by me, it is held by a lot of well respected church leaders ranging from Calvin to perhaps even some of our largest church pastors and professors in our COG educational institutions.
Kevin's point was about growth. The growth of Oak Leaf has nothing to do with that doctrine. It is a story worth checking out. It is a case study in how to open a church. |
No offense Travis, but how can you say the growth has nothing to do with the doctrine. Rainer would tell us different as well as, a common knowledge of people. It's something new. It's very accepting. And it tells you that you can't lose your salvation. Come on. How can that not influence it's growth?? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 11:08 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
KevinLloyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | | gadawg wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | i'm not claiming to be the best or the brightest. and i do think the the CoG can & probably will change one day. the problem is...we don't know when that day will be. will it be when enough people get too old to be in leadership? even then, will it happen?
one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
this is frustrating to see all of this. i know it's happening in the denomination...but it's SO RARE. for me, i just wasn't willing to wait on the changes. i felt like this was my time and i needed to position myself in the best place for growth.
i do think the CG can & will change. and hopefully the todd sturgell's, troy hamby's, brian hunters, dart stricklands, etc of the movement will help that happen. hopefully they will be given the voice to make that happen. |
I copied and pasted the following from the Oak Leaf Church website:
About Eternal Security: Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do.
Does this mean they believe in once saved always saved? That has always been my point about emerging. No conviction. You can't do wrong. Just come as you are and no matter what, we'll make you feel good! Sorry! Sin is sin and there is consequences for sin and a pastor/church has to stand up against sin and preach about the consequences thereof or he/she is not a good shepherd. |
Lord help us, I can go to a small town and build a massive church by preaching that doctrine. Kevin, how is it you could even associate your desire to minister with their practice? You're not COG anymore, but I assume your still pentecostal right? |
you guys need to chill out. have you all never heard of baptist churches before? no, i don't agree with everything that they believe. but i probably don't agree w/ everything that alot of you believe either. yes i'm still CG. and yes, i'll associate myself with them...you have no idea who they are or what they are like. i'm more like minded w/ michael than w/ alot of guys who believe some of the same things i do.
chill out!
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 11:09 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
There's nothing to chill out about Kevin. This is where you and I always butt heads. We can agree on so much, but it all boils back down to this emergent thing doesn't it. You say chill out. I say run away. Of course I've heard of the baptist church. You live in the south, so you should know as I do. It's the largest church organization in the southeastern US. It's doctrines attract people out of the woodworks who go to the clubs on the weekends and go to church on Sundays to be reaffirmed in their belief that they are still saved.
Come on man. How in the world could it even be half way suggested that a COG plant or a pentecostal plant should study a move that bold face lies to their congregations about the Word of God. Their doctrine alone draws people in. I can't identify with that train of thought and I won't pattern my ministry principles behind the ones of those who claim a false doctrine. Their reasoning behind their principles is tainted by their doctrine and is now as much modeled in their efforts.
God help us. I'm recalling the study by the professor at the Theological Seminary citing a gross decline in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And we wonder why. Here's your answer folks. We just want to get them in church and forget the rest of the Word. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/31/07 11:15 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Travis Johnson |
Telecaster,
The SBC is dying and closing down here in Miami with very few exceptions. Doctrine does not a growing church make. In fact, in a conversation I had with Alex McManus, he shared with me that he had done consulting with them here. In that conversation, he stated that the SBC spent $5,000,000 in church planting with only one surviving church in that initiative. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/31/07 11:21 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Travis Johnson |
Telecaster,
Another quick thing. I don't think you know what an emerging church is. It would seem that your definition is anything that is not traditional. Clarify?! |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/31/07 11:23 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
KevinLloyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | There's nothing to chill out about Kevin. This is where you and I always butt heads. We can agree on so much, but it all boils back down to this emergent thing doesn't it. You say chill out. I say run away. Of course I've heard of the baptist church. You live in the south, so you should know as I do. It's the largest church organization in the southeastern US. It's doctrines attract people out of the woodworks who go to the clubs on the weekends and go to church on Sundays to be reaffirmed in their belief that they are still saved.
Come on man. How in the world could it even be half way suggested that a COG plant or a pentecostal plant should study a move that bold face lies to their congregations about the Word of God. Their doctrine alone draws people in. I can't identify with that train of thought and I won't pattern my ministry principles behind the ones of those who claim a false doctrine. Their reasoning behind their principles is tainted by their doctrine and is now as much modeled in their efforts.
God help us. I'm recalling the study by the professor at the Theological Seminary citing a gross decline in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And we wonder why. Here's your answer folks. We just want to get them in church and forget the rest of the Word. |
last time. i'm not emergent. oak leaf is not emergent.
you go ahead and run away. i'm not studying their doctrine...i'm building a relationship w/ someone is & has successfully planted a church that looks & feels a bit like mine.
and i'm sure that it would rub alot of baptists wrong to know that you think that they are all people who just hang out in bars and show up on sundays to make god happy.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/31/07 11:25 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | Telecaster,
Another quick thing. I don't think you know what an emerging church is. It would seem that your definition is anything that is not traditional. Clarify?! |
No definitely not. I dont' do a lot of things traditional, but I'm not emergent. It seems if you ask different emergents, you'll get different takes on what emergent is. What I have experienced for myself is usually a watered down Word infiltrated all about God's love, praise and worship with secular songs, movie nights with unedited movies, a focus on numbers and not spiritual results.
I'm not saying you're that way Travis. Judging by what most folks think about you on here, you seem quite the opposite. So maybe it's unfair to group everyone seeming to be emerging into one category. In fact it's probably just as unfair to group everyone who stands against some of the emerging churches to be traditional and close minded. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
4/1/07 1:36 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | There's nothing to chill out about Kevin. This is where you and I always butt heads. We can agree on so much, but it all boils back down to this emergent thing doesn't it. You say chill out. I say run away. Of course I've heard of the baptist church. You live in the south, so you should know as I do. It's the largest church organization in the southeastern US. It's doctrines attract people out of the woodworks who go to the clubs on the weekends and go to church on Sundays to be reaffirmed in their belief that they are still saved.
Come on man. How in the world could it even be half way suggested that a COG plant or a pentecostal plant should study a move that bold face lies to their congregations about the Word of God. Their doctrine alone draws people in. I can't identify with that train of thought and I won't pattern my ministry principles behind the ones of those who claim a false doctrine. Their reasoning behind their principles is tainted by their doctrine and is now as much modeled in their efforts.
God help us. I'm recalling the study by the professor at the Theological Seminary citing a gross decline in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And we wonder why. Here's your answer folks. We just want to get them in church and forget the rest of the Word. |
last time. i'm not emergent. oak leaf is not emergent.
you go ahead and run away. i'm not studying their doctrine...i'm building a relationship w/ someone is & has successfully planted a church that looks & feels a bit like mine.
and i'm sure that it would rub alot of baptists wrong to know that you think that they are all people who just hang out in bars and show up on sundays to make god happy. |
It probably would, but somebody needs to rub somebody wrong. Don't put words in my mouth though Kevin. I didn't say all baptists did this. But you and I both know there are those who believe that doctrine that live like the devil but still count themselves worthy of heaven. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
4/1/07 1:37 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
tsturgell |
| Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | There's nothing to chill out about Kevin. This is where you and I always butt heads. We can agree on so much, but it all boils back down to this emergent thing doesn't it. You say chill out. I say run away. Of course I've heard of the baptist church. You live in the south, so you should know as I do. It's the largest church organization in the southeastern US. It's doctrines attract people out of the woodworks who go to the clubs on the weekends and go to church on Sundays to be reaffirmed in their belief that they are still saved.
Come on man. How in the world could it even be half way suggested that a COG plant or a pentecostal plant should study a move that bold face lies to their congregations about the Word of God. Their doctrine alone draws people in. I can't identify with that train of thought and I won't pattern my ministry principles behind the ones of those who claim a false doctrine. Their reasoning behind their principles is tainted by their doctrine and is now as much modeled in their efforts.
God help us. I'm recalling the study by the professor at the Theological Seminary citing a gross decline in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And we wonder why. Here's your answer folks. We just want to get them in church and forget the rest of the Word. |
last time. i'm not emergent. oak leaf is not emergent.
you go ahead and run away. i'm not studying their doctrine...i'm building a relationship w/ someone is & has successfully planted a church that looks & feels a bit like mine.
and i'm sure that it would rub alot of baptists wrong to know that you think that they are all people who just hang out in bars and show up on sundays to make god happy. |
It probably would, but somebody needs to rub somebody wrong. Don't put words in my mouth though Kevin. I didn't say all baptists did this. But you and I both know there are those who believe that doctrine that live like the devil but still count themselves worthy of heaven. |
Don't you think this is more of just human nature than denomination. I know a bunch of COG folks that shout and speak in tongues on Sunday and use that same tongue to gossip and tear people down the rest of the week. Some that come and have a Holy Ghost breakthrough then find themselves in the arms of their mistress that night. It's not Baptist or Methodist or COG it's sin and we all deal with it.
_________________
Todd Sturgell
Creative Worship Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
http://www.toddsturgell.org
http://www.facebook.com/toddsturgell
http://twitter.com/toddsturgell
http://www.stevenscreekchurch.com/ |
Friendly Face
Posts: 267
4/1/07 2:08 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
| I'll agree Todd that the whole thing is human nature. We sin and fall short, sometimes daily. However, one thing I can say, is that this denomination preaches that if you sin, you have to go to God for forgiveness where the other does not. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
4/1/07 3:31 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Travis Johnson |
| Telecaster wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | Telecaster,
Another quick thing. I don't think you know what an emerging church is. It would seem that your definition is anything that is not traditional. Clarify?! |
No definitely not. I dont' do a lot of things traditional, but I'm not emergent. It seems if you ask different emergents, you'll get different takes on what emergent is. What I have experienced for myself is usually a watered down Word infiltrated all about God's love, praise and worship with secular songs, movie nights with unedited movies, a focus on numbers and not spiritual results.
I'm not saying you're that way Travis. Judging by what most folks think about you on here, you seem quite the opposite. So maybe it's unfair to group everyone seeming to be emerging into one category. In fact it's probably just as unfair to group everyone who stands against some of the emerging churches to be traditional and close minded. |
My point is that most people on Acts blasting emerging churches don't even know what an emerging church is. It seems like most view a modern, seeker-sensitive church as being emergent. With that said, I don't know what our church is. I really don't care about the label. I do pray that we are on mission.
We preach the Bible, cut through the religious non-sense (while, admittedly probably creating our own). We are socially active, doctrinally conservative, politically divided, and culturally diverse. That makes for a unique community. It doesn't look, sound, or act Bible belt (whether I like it or not).
But, somehow people get slammed for being different. No heresy is involved. I don't know of a single COG preaching heresy. I know some TBN-esque foolishness that is preached and bandied about. We typically don't have a problem with that. But, I don't know of anyone preaching against hell, for homosexuality, or against the supremacy of Scripture.
Yet, we have the need to bash one another. It is sad.
If you have any question regarding what I preach, you can listen (today's message or message archives). I would ask that the generalizations be kept to a minimum when discussing the integrity of other's ministries. I think that is a fair request...a request we would all be wise to honor. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
4/1/07 5:38 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Telecaster |
By your own admission Travis, you don't fit into the emergent community, so the "bashing" shouldn't be an issue anymore than traditionalists being "bashed" as well for being close minded. I don't many bashing remarks about emergents or your church for that matter. The majority of what I see are those sharing their disdain for such ministries that operate under the Emergent banner. If this isn't your ministry, which I believe it isn't, then you shouldn't take offense.
We can also misuse the word bash for someone telling the truth of what they know. We shouldn't assume because someone speaks against emergence or something else that they have no experience or that they are close minded. That is just as much bashing as anything else. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
4/1/07 8:05 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Maybe its just me... |
Grandpa Cleland |
but i have a hard time getting "Growth Strategies" from people that have never pastored or planted a church...
I am not saying this to be rude or cause a riot, but I read a lot of posts on this board from the "Young" Church planters, youth pastors, or evangelists who are ready to pastor.
I read about How they would do it, Why they would change it, and they have all these hopes and dreams about what kind of church they will build. They fuss about the "COG" and talk all this emergent talk and then... you never hear from them again...
See, I am an old timer, and I don't understand why many of us get all upset listening to Vintage, Firestarter, Holzman, Kevinloyd etc talk about how they would do it, blah blah blah... My advice is... come back in a few years when you have planted your church or pastored a church and tell us how it is going...
It is easy to talk about it... it is different to do it... I know that many on this board (Phil, Travis, etc.) are doing it now and very successful at it, and I thank God for that. I may not fully agree on some things, but I listen because they are reaching the harvest and not just talking about reaching the harvest.
So Kevin, Firestarter, Holzman, Vintage.... when you enter into your perfect kingdom, give us a holla (I am still trying to be hip) and tell us how "BIG" your church is...
My boss in the business world always tole me "Don't listen to people that are not producing the results you wish to produce" |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 9:53 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Maybe its just me... |
KevinLloyd |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | but i have a hard time getting "Growth Strategies" from people that have never pastored or planted a church...
I am not saying this to be rude or cause a riot, but I read a lot of posts on this board from the "Young" Church planters, youth pastors, or evangelists who are ready to pastor.
I read about How they would do it, Why they would change it, and they have all these hopes and dreams about what kind of church they will build. They fuss about the "COG" and talk all this emergent talk and then... you never hear from them again...
See, I am an old timer, and I don't understand why many of us get all upset listening to Vintage, Firestarter, Holzman, Kevinloyd etc talk about how they would do it, blah blah blah... My advice is... come back in a few years when you have planted your church or pastored a church and tell us how it is going...
It is easy to talk about it... it is different to do it... I know that many on this board (Phil, Travis, etc.) are doing it now and very successful at it, and I thank God for that. I may not fully agree on some things, but I listen because they are reaching the harvest and not just talking about reaching the harvest.
So Kevin, Firestarter, Holzman, Vintage.... when you enter into your perfect kingdom, give us a holla (I am still trying to be hip) and tell us how "BIG" your church is...
My boss in the business world always tole me "Don't listen to people that are not producing the results you wish to produce" |
attitudes like this towards us is why you're losing your best & brightest. and thanks for the support.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/1/07 9:57 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
