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When was the Holy Ghost first given to men?

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/11/06 10:28 am**

Why do we contend that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost? In reading an earlier thread concerning casting of Lots it was said by one poster that when they cast lots for the Apostle who would replace Judas that this was done just before the Holy Ghost was given as if no one had the Holy Ghost before the Day of Pentecost.... However, there were many people in the New Testament filled with the Holy Ghost before the Day of Pentecost including the disciples who cast these lots.. When they cast lots they already had the Holy Ghost according to the scriptures...

Lets examine the people that we have record of who received the Holy Ghost before the Day of Pentecost.....

#1 - Zacharias - Luke 1:67 - And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, [i]
"Bye the way, he did not speak in tongues as an initial evidence"

#2 - Simeon - Luke 2:25,26 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him
[i]And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. [/i]
Again, No initial Evidence of Tongues

# 3 - Elizabeth - Luke 1:41 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
AGAIN NO INITIAL EVIDENCE

# 4 - John - In his mothers womb, "No int ital Evidence"

# 5 - All of Jesus Disciples had the Holy Ghost before the Day of Pentecost - John 20:22 - And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

Now all of his disciples had the Holy Ghost when he commanded them to receive it, way before Pentecost,,, of course there was no initial evidence there either,,, but all of these plus the many more who we have no record of HAD THE HOLY GHOST

Now, we find out why they had to go to the upper room,,, not to receive the Holy Ghost but to receive the unique power to win the known world to Christ, the power to speak in foreign languages . . . .

Luke 24:47,,,, Here Christ commands his disciples to reach all nations, which is humanly impossible because of the language barriers - - -

"that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem"

Now,, how are they to do this awesome feat? How are they to win the world to Christ? Jesus told them if they would go to Jerusalem and tarry he would send them the POWER,, ***Not the Holy Ghost, since they already had the Holy Ghost""" but he would send them POWER TO WITTINESS,,, the very next verse proves this

Luke 24:49 - "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" He did not tell them to tarry for the Holy Ghost, they already had it but he told them to tarry for this unique power to obey his command of reaching the nations"

So, again I ask this board why do we continue to insist that no one had the Holy Ghost until the Day of Pentecost? It is simply not true... the Day of Pentecost had ONE PURPOSE and ONE PURPOSE ONLY to give those 120 the POWER TO BE WITNESSES and they used that power and spoke to the nations assembled there in foreign languages and therefore won 3,000 souls to Christ, therefore beginning in Jerusalem just as Luke 24:47 commands them

[/i]
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re: The Outpouring of The Holy Ghost

Friendly Face Posts: 138 **5/11/06 11:12 am**

The upper room is to the Holy Ghost, what the manger was to Jesus. If we believe that God is Alpha and Omega, then we understand that the Holy Ghost has always been.

It is true that the Holy Spirit moved upon individuals throughout scripture. In the first verse of the the Bible, it tells us that the Spirit of the Lord moved. However, this was a selective move of the Spirit. He moved upon certain individuals, for specific purposes. However, paralleling this selective work, the Prophets spoke of a time when the Spirit would be POURED out upon all flesh. That is what took place in the upper room.

Jesus even spoke of this outpouring in John 7. This outpouring could not happen until Jesus went to the cross and became glorified.

While the Holy Spirit was available to certain people throughout scripture, He was poured out in the upper room.
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Friendly Face Posts: 197 **5/11/06 12:03 pm**

Acts 1:8?

"And ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me..."

Did God forget that he had already given them the Holy Ghost

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/11/06 12:37 pm**

I don't think so, he is not schizophrenic.. he had already given them the gift of the Holy Ghost. However, the POWER TO WITTINESS was being reserved for the appointed time when all nations would gather at Jerusalem and in his divine wisdom knew that even though these disciples had the Holy Ghost they needed to be endued with POWER TO WITTINESS and this would only be given when the timing was perfect,,, he poured that POWER TO WITTINESS in foreign languages out on the Day of Pentecost.....

I can imagine Jesus saying to his disciples,,, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" a few days later "If you go to Jerusalem you are going to receive the Holy Ghost"
They already had the Holy Ghost but this supernatural POWER TO WITTINESS was being reserved for the Day it was prophesied it would come to, the Day of Pentecost.
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Re: re: The Outpouring of The Holy Ghost

Acts Mod Posts: 3530 **5/11/06 2:18 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2438 **5/11/06 2:57 pm**

Acts 1:13, says they were in [upper room].
They were all in one accord.Vs. 14
Along with that they had a business meeting and discussed the current events that had happened. Peter in charge.

Acts 2:1.... says they were in the [one place]. They were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

Could we have all along assumed they were still in the upper room when they were filled with the Holy Ghost?

One thing about it, it had to of been a good size, one place/upper room. Because there were numbered among them selves, 120.
Then there were also a large number of unbelievers present that witnessed the event.

I was hoping someone might address the scriptures

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/11/06 3:09 pm**

where I reference the disciples were already filled with the Holy Ghost? How can the Pentecostals then say they were filled with the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost? They were not, they were simply given power to wittness on the Day of Pentecost
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Yes, but

Acts Mod Posts: 3530 **5/11/06 3:51 pm**

y it

Acts-celerater Posts: 914 **5/11/06 4:06 pm**

I'm the one who said it, and yes I stand by it. The full counsel of Scripture bears out that yes, the Holy Ghost often came upon men and women to empower them for mighty, supernatural acts...throughout the Old Testament.

I'll assume you know what I mean, so I'm not going to address the scriptures necessarily. Reference all the patriarchs, the Judges, the prophets et al.

John 20:22 is typically exegeted to indicate that Jesus' breathing upon them was a symbolic act to foreshadow what would come on the day of Pentecost.
The article in Greek is wanting, according to Vincent and Robertson agrees that it is an "effusion" of the Holy Spirit indicated as opposed to a personal indwelling-which would occur at Pentecost. The "Breathed on them" is a clear allusion to the Dry Bones of Ezekiel 37:5. It also is seen as an allusion to God breathing life into Adam at creation, thus a pretty standard explanation is that this is when the disciples were the "firstfruits" of those who would receive the life of Christ under the New Covenant-they were "born again" in the New Covenant sense.

let's address just a few of the other scriptures...among many.

(Joh 7:37-39) On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing [34] in Him would receive; for the Holy [35] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

(Joh 14:25-26) "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Act 1:5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Act 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me [1] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth"

do we really need to go on? It was all future tense. The were awaiting the day. The Holy Spirit is God and has always been at work in the earth since Creation. But all of scripture points to the day when He would take up residence in His people and empower them continuously rather than sporadically for specific moments.

Bullet

Bullet
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PH Bullet, Jesus was glorfied when he breathed

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/11/06 4:13 pm**

on the disciples, this was right after his Resurrection,, so he was in perfect order with the scriptures . . . .I cannot believe anything other than when he was glorified after the Resurrection he breathed on them and they received the Holy Ghost . . .I mean were talking about God himself baptizing them in the Holy Ghost, he commanded them to receive it as he breathed on them. . . .in my simple mind I have to believe they did just what he said, they received it!

So your scripture that references his not yet being glorified doesn't apply here, he had been glorified
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Re: PH Bullet, Jesus was glorfied when he breathed

Acts-celerater Posts: 914 **5/11/06 6:24 pm**

Actually PH the Oneness argument has nothing to do here

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/11/06 10:46 pm**

This conversation has nothing to do with Oneness views nor is it what I care to discuss.

I was addressing the fact that you said that the Holy Ghost wasn't given to the disciples yet because Jesus was not Glorified....

I was simply pointing out that after his Resurrection is when he commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost, AFTER he had been glorified

That's all
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In using your same reasoning

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/12/06 12:06 pm**

the verb "labete" as you stated "but does not necessarily imply immediacy" However, there's alot of room there for "ifs" because it does not necessarily mean it's not immediate either;;;

I don't know, just using my simple way of reasoning, I would have to think that Jesus wasn't wasting words when he commanded them to Receive the Holy Ghost.,,,, and then breathes on them,,,

Now if he had just told them receive the Holy Ghost and that was all,, ,you could possibly make that a command for the future but then he breathes on them,,, do you suppose he was just testing out the latest toothpaste on them? I think not, I believe when he was resurrected his gave them the Holy Ghost,,, then he told them to go to Jerusalem for the POWER TO WITTINESS he didn't tell them to go there to receive the Holy Ghost, they already had it
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Peter, my reason for not dealing with the tension

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/12/06 3:22 pm**

is because this verse lends credence to the argument that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was given way before Penteocost and was associated with no form of speaking in tongues,,

thats why
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Peter, again we wind up right back at the beginning

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/12/06 4:28 pm**

My argument is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit needs no evidence, it is received by faith.

You recently argued that there is no evidence that the disciples received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them and I tell you that this is my entire argument, we need no evidence,, scriptures say he breathed on them and while breathing on them commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost.. Once they had received it he commanded them then to go to Jerusalem and wait for Power to Wittiness that can only come from on high,,,, although they had the baptism of the Holy Ghost they now needed a gift of speaking in foreign languages in order to reach the known world, and this is precisely what happened at Pentecost.
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Nope, not combining scriptures, I'm quoting them

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/12/06 5:22 pm**

Luke 24:47 - And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high

They were to go there to obtain POWER to OBEY his COMMAND of reaching all nations, beginning at Jerusalem,, there was no other purpose for the Day of Pentecost than this . . . .

Now, lets talk about this supposed change that didn't occur in the disciples when they received the Holy Ghost . . . .I have preached for years and firmly believe that the true sign of a Spirit Filled believer is their Faith, faith to believe God for anything,, the world can't have faith, its impossible,,

So watch these disciples change to men of Faith once they receive the Holy Ghost,, the only one who didn't change is THOMAS because he did not receive the Holy Ghost, he wasn't there and the proof that he had not received the Holy Spirit is his lack of faith , , , ,Of course I'm referring to the account in John 20:22

Also, when Jesus told them to RECEIVE the Holy Ghost, the word receive is pretty clear in its original meaning; Lambano means
1) to take

a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it

1) to take up a thing to be carried

2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away

1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away

c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own

1) to claim, procure, for one's self

a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant

2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend

3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud

4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self

5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain

6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)

d) to take

1) to admit, receive

2) to receive what is offered

3) not to refuse or reject

4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,

a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something

e) to take, to choose, select

f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience

2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
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Peter you fail to address the fact that you stated

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/12/06 5:46 pm**

that Jesus didn't tell them to tarry in Jerusalem until Acts which I showed evidence to the contrary, you failed to address this rather you tell me not to give you certain scriptures . . . .I don't follow why I cannot refer to Luke's writing, but whatever rules you wish to play bye is fine with me.

As far as you accusing me of saying the disciples were not Christian before that,, of course they weren't,,, surely you remember they we rent called Christians until Antioch.

Actually Thomas saw his hands as well but he had touch them to believe... Once these disciples received the Holy Ghost there was a change all of a sudden they had a new authority
Verse 23: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

This happened immediately following their baptism
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Why are you so adamant about staying in the 4th gospel

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6126 **5/13/06 12:05 am**

I mean why can we not discuss the plurality of scriptures? Why must we stay in John? I am referring to both verses in this discussion
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Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 **5/13/06 1:27 am**

We Pentecostals (and all Bible-believing Christians, actually) say that the disciples were all filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost because that is what the Bible says:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The fact that they were all filled on the Day of Pentecost in no way does away with the fact that many, many people were wonderfully filled with the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the Gospels.

The distinguishing mark of the experience of the Day of Pentecost, as well as all subsequent experiences is speaking in tongues. Before Jesus ascended to heaven and sent back the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the sign of the Holy Spirit filling a person was the ability to prophesy in their native tongue (usually, Hebrew or Aramaic, under the Old Covenant). In the New Era of the Spirit which began at Pentecost, speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance was what was so significant.

Power for divine service has always been the primary reason behind the Spirit's infilling of people.

My 2c,

John
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