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Re: Aaron Scott

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/19/14 11:44 am**

Re: What does the Word of God say.

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/19/14 11:47 am**

A motion which could find middle ground...

Friendly Face Posts: 116 **1/19/14 5:20 pm**

...had been offered to

1) respect the strict interpretation that women should serve under the authority of men by limiting the offices of state overseer / admin bishop, executive council, executive committee, and department chair to males

2) honor the obvious calling, gifting, and anointing of God to raise up women as ministers and leaders which we have already done by ordaining them and appointing them pastoral and other leadership positions

3) give voice to women and young male ministers (also shut out) in the General Council discussions (aka debates)

Side note: I do find it interesting and confusing - outright contradictory - that those who refuse a "progressive revelation" interpretation of the role of women (who were counted with livestock in the OT, shown dignity and respect by Jesus in NT, and later shared in ministry and leadership with Paul after Jesus) do not apply the same logic to slavery.

It was a "progressive revelation" approach that deems slavery against the nature and will of God, even though Scripture allows it and teaches how to properly treat your slave. We rightly abhor slavery and condemn it despite the scriptures that support it. To do so move us beyond what Scripture teaches but in the same direction. The cannon of scripture closes just a few steps shy of abolishing slavery. We followed the Spirit and now see slavery in any form anywhere in the world as a sin and injustice.

Yet with regard to women, we (men) fail to exercise the same logic and regress to the "letter of the law" and completely miss the "spirit of the law".

I sincerely respect those in our movement who view the subjection of men by women as a violation of Scripture. But I also believe the way we have applied that teaching is repressive and dishonoring to God and our sister whom he has called and anointed to lead.

I hope this motion will serve as a compromise and silence the debate for many years to come.

New Member Posts: 17 **1/19/14 5:41 pm**

I think we must be careful to make the discussion a theological one rather than a preference or leadership ability. I do have a huge amount of respect for women pastors. It was a woman pastor who helped me start my ministry (not COG). She served as a leader in their small ministerial fellowship and was referred to as a bishop.

Let's not also forget one of our largest COGs is pastored by a woman. I had the privilege of preacher for Ana Ruth in October in Honduras. How can we tell a woman like Ana Ruth that she is not capable of being a Bishop after building an 8,000 member church but Bro. Bubba with 10 members can? I personally have no qualms about women in leadership.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **1/19/14 5:54 pm**

Not only Bro Bubba with 10 members but there are ordained ministers who have never been a pastor that vote.

Re: A motion which could find middle ground...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **1/19/14 6:26 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **1/19/14 7:33 pm**

Bro Patrick, I have a different view on slavery than most.

I am convinced that what God said about slavery has not changed and is as true today as it ever was.

By "progressive revelation" I mean...

Friendly Face Posts: 116 **1/19/14 9:47 pm**

...the the Word of is both specific in the "letter of the law" and expressive in the "spirit of the law."

Practically speaking, Scripture is specific about about sin and salvation with very little room for interpretation. However with regard to many social customs and practices the Scripture point us in a direction that is Spirit led and could very well "progress" beyond the last recorded state in Scripture.

Issues of slavery, the value of children, sanctity of human life, and the role of women in leadership continue to progress to greater alignment to the Kingdom of God beyond where they left off in Scripture.

For example, Scriptures speak of the miracle of conception and destiny within the womb but does not specifically mention abortion. Through Scripture God points us in a direction that his Spirit continues to lead us and by "connecting the dots" and going one Spirit-led step further we know with some degree of certainty that abortion must be wrong.

Wilberforce and other did the same With regard to slavery and we agree. The previous poster made some strong points regarding the continuation of other forms of "slavery". Financial slavery for most Americans is voluntary (we chose to over spend...and btw, my wife and I are "debt free" meaning we have cash investments which could pay off the only debt currently have - but an 11% yield is better than a 0.5% interest for 3 yrs). "Slave labor" where workers are paid unfair wages and work in deplorable conditions is a horrific injustice, but not the same as being "owned as property". Either way, Scripture points us in a direction that if we continue will lead us to work against that injustice just as passionately.

The role of women seems to be the same. Scripture records how God has led us a long way from women being counted and treated like property to husbands being instructed to consider their wives and practice mutual submission. We are just a few steps away from women having full equality and authority.

I do agree that there is still and order and will yield to those who place man "first" just not "higher" or "superior". We should consider male leaders first but give consideration to women leaders when male leaders are less qualified and capable. Thankfully we have a system in the COG where the top 5 positions of the denomination and top 1 position in each state can be filled by qualified leaders so that women in any other capacity are in fact serving under male spiritual leadership.

And for those who will ignorantly say this somehow opens the door to recognizing homosexuality as being okay as part of the "progressive revelation", let me remind you that homosexuality is plainly listed as a sin whereas being a woman or even a woman in leadership within the church is not.

It Aint Fair

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **1/19/14 11:21 pm**

Good People Can Disagree

Acts-celerater Posts: 854 **1/20/14 10:34 am**

On this issue, it is clear to me for all the reasons I've identified in previous posts, that the ministry of women should be fully embraced by the Church of God and that a two-tiered system of ordination has no merit in Scripture. In my humble opinion, trying to straddle the fence on this issue seems to show a lack of conviction and/or courage on the part of the COG.

Having said that, there are people I greatly respect who differ with me on this issue. While I feel I can make a biblically sound and logical argument for my position, my friends feel they can take the opposite position and also make a biblically sound argument (though logically I see their position as self-defeating). We can agree to disagree on this and still be friends. In fact, it isn't just men who disagree with me on this, but I know women who also reject the idea of women being ordained at the same level as a man.

As to the fact that we keep bringing it up in the GA, I'm also for that. I think that when there is an issue in our organization that affects a large number of our membership, but who's voices are systemically silenced, than it is incumbent upon those of use who embrace this view to keep speaking up and keep bringing the issue to the floor, even if it is voted down every single time.

I'd be interested in how the GA would vote on this if the motion to allow women to be Ordained Bishops ever made it past the General Council.
_________________
Mark E. Hardgrove, D.Min., Ph.D.
Senior Pastor Conyers Church of God
http://www.conyerscog.org
Dean & VP for Academics at BHU
http://www.beulah.org/

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4743 **1/20/14 3:29 pm**

That is an ignorant,thing to say! You have no idea what you are talking about. I have a degree, and I know many of the OB that have degrees, they are more importantly called by God for that position. You come across as making it seem the leadership has their lofty degree and are so smart and the rest of us stupid OB don't have the "education" and should not have a say. Hey braniac where do you think these men are picked from? It really ticks me off when people keep ramming things to the GA just to pass it. When we say no it is no and its not up to the Council of 18 who by the way vote also since there OB's everyone has a vote in the GA and it is shot down again and again. Let it go. There is probably a reason it is shot down again and again and it is YOUR opinion that it is needed change.

Re: A motion which could find middle ground...

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4743 **1/20/14 3:37 pm**

Bro that will last till you have new generation who are outraged that they cant sit in those seats. I think that women Pastors who are Senior Pastors and Exhorters who are senior pastors should have a seat with the Bishops for discussing issues that can pertain to their church that they currently dont have a say in. I like you idea but like I said there are some who feel its all or nothing. Sad but true. As long as the majority hold the biblical view that women are not senior to men then there is no way to make everyone happy.

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4743 **1/20/14 3:38 pm**

what are you trying to say about the 10 members?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **1/20/14 5:16 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4743 **1/20/14 7:30 pm**

Just to clarify...

Friendly Face Posts: 116 **1/20/14 8:43 pm**

The motion I referred to previously which has been submitted does not recognize women as "ordained bishops" but does allow them to participate in the general council as "ordained" (which has already be permitted).

Jackson, you are right, another generation is likely to rise and make challenges to anything we decide (after all, isn't that we all do at EVERY GA?)

Like David, my hope is to serve MY generation and die. Smile

Patrick

Acts-celerater Posts: 854 **1/21/14 1:52 pm**

That would be a half-measure, but it would certainly strengthen the likelihood that the next step would be that they are ordained bishops.
_________________
Mark E. Hardgrove, D.Min., Ph.D.
Senior Pastor Conyers Church of God
http://www.conyerscog.org
Dean & VP for Academics at BHU
http://www.beulah.org/

Let My Women Go!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **1/22/14 9:54 am**

On February 28 of this year, my wife and I will celebrate 35 years of marriage. In those 35 years of marriage and 33 years of ministry, my wife has saved my hide innumerable times by her wisdom and observation. As a man, and as a pastor, I have blind spots. I make assumptions sometimes that can lead to egregious errors, but God has blessed me with a woman who is paying attention and sees the intent of my heart where others simply see the results of my words and actions.

My wife has no ministerial credentials, nor does she desire to obtain them, but she is ever as much a minister as I am. In fact, it is the combination of both of our strengths that makes my ministry fruitful and successful, wherever it may be so.

This is true on a personal and individual level and it is just as true on a corporate level where we have women of God serving the Lord by our sides. Fortunately for us as men, and fortunately for the Church of God, we will eventually hear what the women think, even if we do not do so on the Assembly floor. Smile

The thing is, God does give wisdom to women, and a wise man will listen to hear what his wife has to say. A wise church and a wise denomination will do the same.

I received my first level of credential in the Assemblies of God at an Indiana District campmeeting on June 30, 1981. I remember meeting with and being interviewed by "the brethren" and one statement they made burned itself into my memory so that I have never forgotten it. They said, "Brother Johnson, our granting credentials to you today will not make you a minister. We do not have that authority or capability. All we can do in granting you credentials is to recognize the call of God on your life as reflected in the ministry you are already doing. In granting you credentials, all we are doing is recognizing the work that God is doing in and through your life."

One of the major differences between the Old and New Covenants is the fact that in the last days God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, with the result that your sons AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, and "even on my male bondservants and female bondservants in those days will I pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy". The privilege to prophesy (speaking forth the mind and will of God) is the spiritual birthright of female as well as male servants of God. In Christ, and when they are speaking from Christ, there is no distinction based on gender.

Our entire system of granting credentials is a man-made system. It is meant to represent spiritual realities revealed in Scripture, however, there is no precedent in Scripture for the different "levels" of credentials that we implement (Timothy and Mark weren't "ordained ministers" while Paul was an "ordained bishop", the distinction didn't exist). How do we dare superimpose over Scripture a division that does not exist in Scripture itself?

The word "bishop" appears four times in four verses in the King James Version. Ironically, as a part of speech, it is considered a feminine noun, yet we apply it only to males. One of the meanings of the word is a visitation for the purpose of investigating or inspecting. What is it about a woman that makes her incapable of wisely examining a work that is being done and determining it's legitimacy and fruitfulness according to Scripture and the Holy Spirit? What advantage does being male bring to the table that being female lacks?

The word "ordain" appears five times in five verses in the King James Version. Only two of these verses are in the New Covenant writings, both of them in Paul's letters to the churches. In 1 Corinthians 7:17, Paul ordains in all churches that "as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk". In Titus 1:5, Paul instructs Titus to "ordain elders in every city". Whereas "bishop" is a noun - the name of a person, place or thing - "ordain" is a verb, a word of action, the act of "arranging, appointing, prescribing or giving order to."

Once again, what is it about a male that makes him more capable of arranging and giving order to a church than a female? (As an aside, who does the arranging and decorating at your church, pastor, the men's group?)

In Titus 2:9-10, Paul tells Titus to instruct slaves to "be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior." Paul gave his instructions about women for the same reason. He was dealing with an infant Church that could have easily been crushed by the pagan world surrounding it. There was going to be enough suffering coming their way simply as a result of preaching the gospel. Paul didn't want to add to that the additional burden of suffering as a social activist.

The apostle Peter agreed, telling the early Christians, "Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation." and "But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler." Both Peter and Paul were concerned about the impression Christians made on the society around them in which they lived.

Both Peter and Paul knew that they could not afford to antagonize the people they were trying to reach or distract them from the message of the gospel by secondary issues. That is why Paul instructed believing slaves, "Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ."

It would have been very easy for the slaves who became believers in Peter and Paul's day to insist on a social uprising to set them free from human slavery to men, and they could have tried to justify it by their having become slaves of Christ. But God did not instruct the apostles to allow them do so, because their insistence on temporal freedom in this world would have distracted from the primary message of freedom from sin and salvation through faith in Christ.

There is a time for everything under the sun, as Solomon said, and the time for fighting slavery was not in the first century when the Church was in its infancy and being established. In a similar way, the first century was not the time for changing the social customs of the day regarding women and their places of authority. That was not the time 1900 years ago, but it is the time today. Today is the time to see the fulfilment of women being empowered to take their places alongside men.

How can we extend Church membership to teenagers at age 16 so that they have a voice in church matters, yet deny fully grown, mature, and godly women who are called to the ministry to sit as equals with their male counterparts on the Assembly floor? Do we really believe that 16 year old teens have more wisdom, knowledge and anointing than their very own mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and cousins?

The Scriptures were not meant to be restrictive and keep us in a stasis, they were given to us for guidance so we could grown in the knowledge of God and the image of Christ. As Ephesians 4 says, "to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love."

In Christ there is neither male or female just as their is neither slave or free. If we are to grow into maturity in Christ, then we need to arrive at the place where we no longer make distinctions among ourselves as servants of Christ on the basis of gender. This week we remembered the legacy of Martin Luther King and his fight for the rights of black people. Echoing that sentiment, I can hear the Lord say, "Let my women go!"
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Randy said:

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/22/14 10:29 am**

In Christ there is neither male or female just as their is neither slave or free. If we are to grow into maturity in Christ, then we need to arrive at the place where we no longer make distinctions among ourselves as servants of Christ on the basis of gender. This week we remembered the legacy of Martin Luther King and his fight for the rights of black people. Echoing that sentiment, I can hear the Lord say, "Let my women go!"
***************************************************

I sorta like that Randy! Smile

Good comment. Cool

_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

Either way this issue needs to be finalized

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1055 **1/22/14 2:42 pm**

We have gone around this mountain long enough. I hope that, if the issue of female bishops is on the agenda, there will be something included that brings finality to this measure.

If female bishops passes that's fine with me, I'll respect that decision. But if it doesn't pass, it should not be brought back as quickly as our Minutes allow. To me its disrespectful to continue bringing something that the General Council or General Assembly rejects.

Even if you disagree with the decision of a General Council/Assembly, the process should be respected. I do believe there are times when failed measures could be brought back for more consideration. But on THIS issue, I wish we could make a decision and let that be that.

I have a problem with "We will keep putting it on the agenda until it passes" approach to any topic.