| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 Calvinism is a pretty sweet deal... |
seeker930 |
| as long as you are not one that was predestined for hell. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 700
2/4/14 1:48 pm
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | | If God arbitrarily destines some people to salvation by His will and good pleasure, what about the people that are not saved? Did He destine them to eternal damnation using this same criteria? Is it His will and good pleasure to see people burn and suffer for eternity, not because of what they've done but because of the choice He made. |
Yep, if ya bleeve hyper-Calvinism (double predestination an all) what you said above is EXACTLY what they bleeve. Some folk can cuss God to his face but cant resist his grace, ie, they will be dragged into heaven if necessary. Them whats no elected, can repent, beg forgiveness, believe in Jesus, but it is impossible for em to be saved, cause God, for his own pleasure, has elected em to burn in hell forever. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/4/14 2:38 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Some thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
I believe that there are SOME people/events that God does predestine. I also believe there are some people/events (perhaps most) that God does Not predestine, but allows them to happen as they will, so long as they do not conflict with what He has purposed.
If there is no free will, then our God is no better at all than some vicious Hindu and South American deity. Because if there is no free will, then God must of necessity have chosen that some MUST go to hell (or if He did this only because He has the power to save only so many...then He is not omnipotent).
ONLY if He at least gives the others the CHANCE (not the guarantee) to be saved does He transcend the same-ol'-god category of the other idols.
Further, if He has predestined us all before birth, then that means that either every child that ever died was predestined for eternal life...or they are now burning in hell. If so, then you have a God who is not one whit better than the Aztec gods who were supposedly persuaded to send more rain via the torture of children.
No. I serve the BEST GOD OF ALL. How good is He? Do you best to conceive the BEST God you can. Got it? He's even better than that.
Very simply, if you can imagine a God that is BETTER than the One you serve, then you need to serve THAT God, since anything less is not a God of infinite perfection. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
2/4/14 2:43 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
Troy, was Israel God's chosen/elect? Could a Gentile covert and become part of the chosen people? Could an Israelite commit apostasy and be cut off?
Predestination refers to God's desire or goal as to what his people will be--conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
Election refers as well to the corporate body of Christ. We are chosen in Him, again, so that we might be holy and without blame before Him in love. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/4/14 3:22 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? Rom 11:22-24 NASB |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/4/14 3:26 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Troy Hamby wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | I was listening to a Mark Driscoll sermon this morning on the way to work |
times are lean, eh? |
nah, he actually preaches the Bible and doesn't just prance around making guttural noises and making everyone say "Amen" to every word he says so he feels better about his sermon. I like that. |
If those are your choices, times are indeed lean. |
ok, maybe I'm over exaggerating but I have found myself turned off by Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers for the past few years. Needless to say, I haven't even turned on TBN or any of those stations for the last decade. I like preachers who systematically preach through the Bible and take time to explain/give their interpretations and aren't worried about getting 'amens' from the crowd.
I'm open to suggestions and would like to find some Pentecostal preachers who fit this mold...any suggestions? |
What backwater do you live in?
I know hundreds of COG pastors - and 98% of them are nothing like this.
You need to get out more.
Stop by Loran Livingston's church for starters.
Livingston
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
2/4/14 5:59 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
DHDRabbi |
It makes more sense that God gave you the free will to believe in predestination than it does that He predestined me to believe in free will.
--Eddie Robbins--
 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13680
2/4/14 6:34 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Eddie... |
Aaron Scott |
Amen!
In fact, if we are predestined to believe in free will when, in fact, there is no such thing, then God is also deceptive.
Descartes took this on in his philosophy, but our theology ought to resist this also! Why? Because what kind of god (lower case on purpose) plays this sort of deception on his children/minions?
We dare not espouse a god that is no more than a trickster (Loki?) at best...and a dark evil at worst! We serve the Living God--a God of love and care and concern--a God Who loves deeper than we can imagine. He is not a trickster. He is a FATHER. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
2/4/14 7:21 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Randy Johnson |
Does God have the power of choice?
If He does, then we do, because we are made in His image.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
2/4/14 7:24 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | | nah, he actually preaches the Bible and doesn't just prance around making guttural noises and making everyone say "Amen" to every word he says so he feels better about his sermon. |
Go ahead an make fun a the ole timers preachin, Troy. Course I don't do no prancin, ats fer the sissy boys an all, but them guttural noises, "huh" and "ahhhhhhhhhhhh" an Woooooop Woooooop," son, ats preachin. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/4/14 7:27 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
DHDRabbi |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | Does God have the power of choice?
If He does, then we do, because we are made in His image. |
Are you saying we have all the same powers as God? Can we create? Can we give life? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13680
2/4/14 7:29 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
DHDRabbi |
| I believe in BOTH free will and predestination. There are some things that are going to happen because God said they would. that is predestined. I think of it as a box. The box has a destination. The things inside the box have free will to move around inside the box. Thy can do as they please inside the box but the box has a destination that we have no control over. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13680
2/4/14 7:32 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| DHDRabbi wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | Does God have the power of choice?
If He does, then we do, because we are made in His image. |
Are you saying we have all the same powers as God? Can we create? Can we give life? |
Rab, you speakin like a true word a faither. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/4/14 7:36 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Troy Hamby |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Troy Hamby wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Troy Hamby wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | I was listening to a Mark Driscoll sermon this morning on the way to work |
times are lean, eh? |
nah, he actually preaches the Bible and doesn't just prance around making guttural noises and making everyone say "Amen" to every word he says so he feels better about his sermon. I like that. |
If those are your choices, times are indeed lean. |
ok, maybe I'm over exaggerating but I have found myself turned off by Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers for the past few years. Needless to say, I haven't even turned on TBN or any of those stations for the last decade. I like preachers who systematically preach through the Bible and take time to explain/give their interpretations and aren't worried about getting 'amens' from the crowd.
I'm open to suggestions and would like to find some Pentecostal preachers who fit this mold...any suggestions? |
What backwater do you live in?
I know hundreds of COG pastors - and 98% of them are nothing like this.
You need to get out more.
Stop by Loran Livingston's church for starters.
Livingston |
the swamps of Baltimore |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2458
2/4/14 9:58 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
philunderwood |
EVERYBODY is predestined to be in relationship with God...it is the design of Creation. But, though God woos, not everyone answers yes.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
2/5/14 3:42 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| philunderwood... |
Aaron Scott |
I think you might be stretching to say that everyone is PREDESTINED to be in a relationship with God. That would mean--according to the usual meaning of the word--that everyone WILL have a relationship with God.
Over and over, I come back to the belief that some are, and some are not, predestined...yet God is not willing that ANY perish. Which means that those not predestined MUST have free will. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
2/5/14 8:45 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
| philunderwood wrote: | | EVERYBODY is predestined to be in relationship with God...it is the design of Creation. But, though God woos, not everyone answers yes. |
That's the fact, Jack! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/5/14 10:12 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
mytimewillcome |
| I remember my first prooftexting mistake |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
2/5/14 10:50 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Troy Hamby |
[quote="Quiet Wyatt"] | philunderwood wrote: | | EVERYBODY is predestined to be in relationship with God...it is the design of Creation. But, though God woos, not everyone answers yes. |
to my understanding Phil, this would not fit the definition of "pre-destination". If God is the One doing the pre-destinating, then wouldn't it be set in stone? If He is omniscient, then He would know who would accept Him and who would reject Him. I would agree that it's His will and desire that everyone be saved but He knows that some will not.
I guess this goes back to the part of pre-destination that drives me batty. Is God's predestination based on His sovereign choice or his ability to know what we will choose before hand? I'm hoping that His election is based on our decision...that allows room for free will while still preserving the omniscience of God. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2458
2/5/14 11:56 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| He dumped a load of lumber on me... |
David Branson |
....as I was minding my own business, happily in my sin, not looking for God, salvation, or inner peace. I was walking along pulling a handtruck behind me at work in a sawmill when a load of lumber got knocked over and fell on me, I screamed out, "Jesus, save me!" Afterwards I was like, "Where the hell did that come from, I ain't a Christian, nor do I care to be."
Eventually, I got saved........
_________________
Giving the gospel to the called and anybody else that will sit still long enough to hear about His grace. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 887
2/5/14 5:00 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
