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Re: Tom

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/28/14 11:39 pm**

Tom Sterbens wrote:

"What I "have" said many times is - even men who are full of the Holy Spirit can miss what God is doing because we have been conditioned by other systems of thought we know and "trust." Example: Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, apparently taught the exclusion of gentiles from the new covenant, until God snatched him around and sent him to preach to the household of Cornelius. AND HE DID THAT FOR 11 YEARS AFTER PENTECOST.

I could go on...but I would sound as though I am harping, because I've said it and/or written here and other places over and over."

Is our only hope in the COG is that God will snatch us around? We have been snatched around when finances diminished. Is it going to take another snatching around? The Ungodly System reacts to beat down prophets (like Tom) when they try to point out what is wrong with the System. On my local level I hear OB's laugh at those (including me) that don't play games that the System loves. In my opinion the System is a bad mindset that many have grown to love. In my area it's fondly called as the Good Old Boys Club (GOBC) and if you don't conform to their ideals and wanted actions you lose favor. They let you know they will do everything in their power to see that you lose favor.
The spirit of the love of God is replaced with the love of the System. The System operates out of selfishness and will stay in power because of selfishness.

I agree that the COG has Godly leaders that probably don't know where to start to change the current atmosphere. If they had been one of the prophets calling for change they probably would not have been elected. In my opinion the System is a Goliath and will take a David to kill it.

RE: Tom

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/29/14 2:20 pm**

Tom Sterbens wrote:

Example: "The fact is, State AB's must get the vote of those in their state, and if they get crossways with their state council, it is political suicide!" In two of the three conversations I was asked rhetorically, "What would you do!!??"

This is a great example of the Bad System. An AB should not be placed in a position where he is put under pressure to do things for the State Council or any of their friends that is not of the will of God. I am familiar with all the pastors wanting the bigger churches and thinking that they are entitled. They put pressure on the AB also. This sub-system needs changing along with many other sub-systems to get politics out of the church. Getting politics out and making it an environment where Godly Leaders can follow the mind of Christ needs to be worked on.

Now if you presented a proposal to make the AB accountable to the EC or GO at the GA how much of a chance do you think it would have in passing? This proposed change would take away the control of the State Council or local pastors over the AB in any way. It would have very little chance because (1) there is very little trust in our system and (2) most pastors have used the current AB system to get what they want and they would not want to change something that was working for them.

Who created this Bad System? It was well intentioned pastors wanting to get more control and benefits for themselves.

I want to add that there are very many Godly pastors and leaders in the COG but the System stinks. I think that was what your post was also stating.

I will respond to your second post by tonight.

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **1/29/14 3:48 pm**

Bro Bob

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/29/14 6:18 pm**

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying to change anything about the current system except make the AB a position where he does not have to be in the political hotseat, does not have to get an approval vote by anyone in the state. Without that political pressure he could sleep easier and be in a better position to send the right pastor to a church. The only problem he would have then is those higher up putting political pressure on him.

RE: Tom

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/29/14 6:53 pm**

Tom Sterbens wrote:

"The tough question is: Have you done anything here that differs from the behavior of those you have indicted?

In fact - if you respond to them in like-fashion, have you not informally accepted "a system" of communication they have initiated?

You have intimated they communicate harmfully in veiled fashion behind the cloak of the "Good Ole Boy System," but is that much different from the system of communicating from behind the veil of a pen name to harm them? Again, have you not unwittingly embraced an un-Godly "system" right along with them?

The difference in what members of the Good Old Boy (GOB) system do and what I do on here is entirely different. The GOB will tell everyone you know to try to get revenge spread the word about you that you cannot be trusted. My first response is to try to reconcile with each one if it is possible. I never tell anyone how they treated me. I pray for them that God might convict them of their actions.

When I get on Acts and use a situation that has happened to me I never post a name. I recognize that we should never come against Gods people, but I don't have a problem coming against ungodly Systems.

In some of your previous posts you have come down hard on the way things have been handled in the COG but I have never seen you publically
have a problem with a person or leader even though you did not like what was going down. I'm sure you call them if you feel it is necessary.

Is the COG better or worse than we were 10 years ago?

Re: Warning-unpopular post

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/29/14 10:02 pm**

What People Do...

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **1/30/14 8:47 am**

Tom's references to habits and "what men will do" reminded me that I've come to the strong conclusion that most of us, especially leaders and pastors are fairly consistent in their behavior. What I mean is that what they have done they will do absent a divine or deeply personal intentional plan of action. Spending habits, eating habits, decisions, etc. I have lost 100s of pounds but I'm still 200 lbs because I go back to my old habits….UGH!

When I share resumes of potential pastor candidates, I often say, "choose a preference on your pastor based on his/her record. What they have done they typically will do!" That is not to infer that people don't change or want change and in fact, over time we all do change some things, attitudes, actions but largely at some point we lock in and become consistent in our patterns. The criminal world calls this our "M-O"…A pastor who has been at 4 churches and has built a new building in all four is likely to build something at the next church--it's his comfort level. If there is unhealthy behavior, it is often repeated no matter where you put a person as the Catholic church found with some abusing priests.

That said, significant change in behavior in the Church of God requires several things, though this is not an exhaustive list…

Leadership that is courageous and not beholden to political ambitions
Participants who want what God wants more than we want what we want
Pastors and ministers who accept their own call and are comfortable to fill that place, without feeling that others have more important roles so that they abandon their important place in the organization
Middle managers who are visionary and capable of building trust and relationships that empower
Freedom from the perception that contrarian thought when given in the right spirit is not heresy, rebellion
An openness to new ideas and new people who are not like us
A sense of future that understands every decision has a consequence (either good or bad) and so it matters what we do today

I could go on and I want to make sure you understand my feelings here…

It is my feeling God is changing all of us--we're closer to the Rapture, seem to be more mindful of missional pull of Christ and hungry for the thing God is doing among us. I believe in necessary change, I push for it in every place I have influence, I'm open to the freshness of our opportunity and I'm humbled and inspired to find more and more leaders who are expressing the same. We have the leadership who can help us get there but we all must do our part, pray, communicate, resist the tug of the "same" and embrace the journey is now taking the Church of God on.

Humbly submitted...

OHIOBISHOPBILL

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/30/14 9:49 am**

OHIOBISHOPBILL stated:

"That said, significant change in behavior in the Church of God requires several things, though this is not an exhaustive list…

Leadership that is courageous and not beholden to political ambitions
Participants who want what God wants more than we want what we want
Pastors and ministers who accept their own call and are comfortable to fill that place, without feeling that others have more important roles so that they abandon their important place in the organization
Middle managers who are visionary and capable of building trust and relationships that empower
Freedom from the perception that contrarian thought when given in the right spirit is not heresy, rebellion
An openness to new ideas and new people who are not like us
A sense of future that understands every decision has a consequence (either good or bad) and so it matters what we do today

I could go on and I want to make sure you understand my feelings here…"

These things you list need to be encouraged and required. They give those involved leaders and followers the freedom they need to carry on with their tasks. These thing build up and do not destroy or discourage.

Do you propose these things for individuals or do you think motions needs to be passed at the GA to encourage some changes that would make some of these things more possible? Getting trust back in the system whether it be trust of pastors or members is very important.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/30/14 10:12 am**

My belief is that all problems in the body of Christ essentially boil down to one thing--walking in the flesh/self-seeking vs. walking in the Spirit, in unselfish love for all.

Those who are self-seeking, walking after the flesh, need to be disabused of the notion that they are truly walking on the path that leads to life. We have swallowed a lie that basically says one can live a self-seeking, carnal life and still be right with God.

Quiet Wyatt

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **1/30/14 10:47 pm**

Quiet Wyatt wrote:

"My belief is that all problems in the body of Christ essentially boil down to one thing--walking in the flesh/self-seeking vs. walking in the Spirit, in unselfish love for all.

Those who are self-seeking, walking after the flesh, need to be disabused of the notion that they are truly walking on the path that leads to life. We have swallowed a lie that basically says one can live a self-seeking, carnal life and still be right with God."

I agree with your statement. You can't legislate Holy Spirit at the GA. I'm finding that most self seeking, abusive leaders in the COG think they are doing God a favor by their actions. If you're doing God a favor you don't have to worry. They are the same way as Paul when he persecuted Christians. Paul wasn't worried until God gave him something to worry about.

The basis for most of the ungodly actions I see is self seeking & controlling. If leaders hearts can't be touched to the point they will repent, nothing will help the COG.

We have some great leaders and pastors in the COG, but those rotten apples can spoil a barrel.

Recapturing the purpose of the General Assembly

Member Posts: 38 **2/1/14 11:41 am**

Many of us, who love this Church, care deeply about our future. We recognize the counter-productiveness of inbred systemic issues.

One minister friend told me about a dream of a huge Giant that had fallen on his back...and, as hard as he tried...He was not able to help him get back on his feet!

We have a giant situation: The purpose of the General Assembly had already morphed into something much less than its original purpose when I first entered the Assembly arena. And, early on I witnessed a deep sense of mistrust and frustration...literally it seemed like an "us and them" fighting match.

There have been times of divine intervention...God-Times...when the Holy Spirit ministered healing and renewal...let's don't forget Him in this equation.

I believe there is a path forward...and, I believe the recent General Assembly action on reallocating the tithe of tithes is turning out to be a very positive move forward for the church. Painful, but profitable!

The path forward requires me and you to rethink our individual and collective attitudes toward one another as we we meet together in this next General Assembly.

Sure, we all hate some of the "ways" we go about things...There is a general pervasive desire for changing us and redirecting our future. Most everyone realizes we have a long ways to go....

I believe that our first step is to intentionally focus on the heart of our movement..recapturing the central purpose of our times together in the General Assembly...Wouldn't that be our mission, vision and core commitments?

Take five minutes to here Pastor Jack Hayford speak about His own denominational struggles and what He believes the Lord spoke to him...It is 5 minutes excerpted form a 13 minute video message He prepared for the Church of God Florida State Minister's Meeting in 2010

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=st3R2nADRT0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dst3R2nADRT0%26feature%3Dyoutu.be
_________________
J. DAVID [JIM] STEPHENS

Re:FloridaBishop

Friendly Face Posts: 101 **2/1/14 4:30 pm**

You've hit the critical point that each of us is responsible for the church and its direction. Where we are now is where we have all allowed the process to go and in that sense, there is the opportunity for us to join our hearts together and see movement in a new direction.

Most of the people with whom I talk who have serious thoughts about the church are sensing the shift that is coming and I'm hopeful that this coming Assembly will signal to many that business as usual is not on the agenda. Change is not easy, personally or corporately and there will be those who will not adjust easily to change but we are not what we were in 1906 and we are not what we were in 1966 but where we are today is a critical time and it is our responsibility to lead, follow and unite.

Bill

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **2/2/14 2:40 pm**

OHIOBISHOPBILL stated:

"You've hit the critical point that each of us is responsible for the church and its direction. Where we are now is where we have all allowed the process to go and in that sense, there is the opportunity for us to join our hearts together and see movement in a new direction.

Most of the people with whom I talk who have serious thoughts about the church are sensing the shift that is coming and I'm hopeful that this coming Assembly will signal to many that business as usual is not on the agenda. Change is not easy, personally or corporately and there will be those who will not adjust easily to change but we are not what we were in 1906 and we are not what we were in 1966 but where we are today is a critical time and it is our responsibility to lead, follow and unite."

You are so right in that all are responsible in the sight of the Lord. I once asked the Lord a question that stumped me. I asked "why are all these church members that have been going to church for years acting like the ungodly? His response to me was a surprise. He said "they have learned that kind of behavior from their pastors and leaders." Pastors and leaders at every level should return to being the example of Jesus. Until the pastors and leaders come together in love things are going to stay the same. Pastors in my area talk about each other and never fellowship with each other. They act as if they are in competition.